Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

[Shulem]

I beg to differ. And I tend to think that the more people out there in the world who learn about these matters, the less will be baptized into the church because they will see the Book of Mormon as a fraudulent story that *was* presented as a historical and genuine record.

So, in other words, you don't care about the actual value of what you do outside of dissuading people from getting baptized in the LDS Church.

Thank you for your candor.

I'm just not too concerned about your opinion in this matter because I deem it invalid.

[Shulem]

OMFG.

Whatever.

Is that supposed to be an improvement on your eloquence and thoughtfulness?

No. It's exactly how and what I'm thinking. You should know that about me by now.

[Moksha]

No, it really is silly to look at a text written almost 200 years ago and judge the believability of its stories by what you assume should have been included in them, when you don't even bother to contextualize it among works of the same genre.

If Shulem was to consider what materials and techniques would be needed for Nephi and company to build the Appian Way or other important Roman roads, would he need to study ancient building plans, geology, and geography? What about the simple consideration of the Nephites lacking even rudimentary road building materials or implements?

[Shulem]

The only effect these details achieve in the story is to double down on the literal claim that this ship-building really did happen with real metal tools made from scratch.

I have a difficult time wrapping my mind around how asinine this statement is. Consider the following:

The Book of Mormon is obviously written in the Biblical tradition.

The most famous travel myth aside from the Exodus (which the Book of Mormon refers too repeatedly) is Noah building an ark on the command of God to survive the flood.

The Book of Mormon has two similar stories: Nephi constructing a ship, and the Jaredites building barges.

Both episodes are miracle tales. The Jaredite version is more obviously miraculous (vision of God), but both are miraculous.

Metalwork is a preoccupation of the text, because, hey, the book itself is supposedly made of metal plates.

Smith operated in an environment in which there is a certain mystique to finding precious metals and working with metals. Oh, gee, I wonder why he focuses on Nephi working with metal!?!?!?!

This preoccupation comes out of the treasure digging and bogus making operations that were clearly a big topic of interest at the time.

The possibility that the mention of metal working in this account is *only* for the purposes of verisimilitude is fairly low.

Kish,

Honestly, arguing with you on some subject matters is like arguing with Ed Goble on the Book of Abraham. You are way out there, man. Dude, you loose me a lot.

[Moksha]

What about the simple consideration of the Nephites lacking even rudimentary road building materials or implements?

Or building skills. That is not something a person running a falafel stand on the streets of Jerusalem would normally pick up.

[Shulem]

No, it really is silly to look at a text written almost 200 years ago and judge the believability of its stories by what you assume should have been included in them, when you don't even bother to contextualize it among works of the same genre.

If Shulem was to consider what materials and techniques would be needed for Nephi and company to build the Appian Way or other important Roman roads, would he need to study ancient building plans, geology, and geography? What about the simple consideration of the Nephites lacking even rudimentary road building materials or implements?

Look, it's really simple. Joseph Smith was rambling the story out of his hat -- probably needed fresh oxygen. He was high! It was very likely part of the same story he told earlier in the missing 116 page manuscript so it tends to read a bit disjointed if you ask me. The idea that they settled into Bountiful for the space of many days and nobody bothered to light a fire as they had very little fire in the desert while wandering, is a silly narrative. Smith goofed up and I'm smart enough to see it and point it out! And nobody thanks me. F-you all. (This is a thankless job at times.) Finally, they arrive at the coast and settle in and not have a fire? What? No hot water? No cooked food? No torches at night to light up their camp and settlement? What the hell is that?!

Look, I don't believe Smith had the above in mind. He just lost track of his story while his head was in the hat and while the fake plates sat under a cloth. Oliver just kept dictating what Joseph stupidly said. The bit about Nephi climbing the mountain after they had been there for the space of many days is just more silliness to the whole story. In the meantime, it wasn't until Nephi got back from the mountain that he revealed the plan to build a boat. And they needed a bellows to create the fire pit for that very purpose. Once they constructed the bellows and were ready to mix ore for making tools, it was time to start the fire. *THIS* is the moment Joseph goofs and loses track of the idea that all they needed to do was go and get a light from the nearest fire pit already burning. But no! This is when Nephi has to strike the two stones to make a fire. It's super NEPHI!

Hole in the script. If people can't see that -- then they're just f-ing dumb!

There. I feel better. I'm the best Book of Mormon scholar around here.

[Kishkumen]

I'm just not too concerned about your opinion in this matter because I deem it invalid.

Another example of your questionable judgment. One of the two of us holds graduate degrees in Comparative Literature and Ancient History. The other one is making up crap and talking out of his butt, all the while saying that the person who writes about ancient texts as his profession has an invalid opinion.

[Kishkumen]

Kish,

Honestly, arguing with you on some subject matters is like arguing with Ed Goble on the Book of Abraham. You are way out there, man. Dude, you loose me a lot.

Screw you for being rude about Ed. You really ought to look into the social worth of acting like an adult, learning to spell, and gaining an education on the matters you claim you care about.

[Shulem]

I'm just not too concerned about your opinion in this matter because I deem it invalid.

Another example of your questionable judgment. One of the two of us holds graduate degrees in Comparative Literature and Ancient History. The other one is making up crap and talking out of his butt, all the while saying that the person who writes about ancient texts as his profession has an invalid opinion.

Look, I don't doubt you are smart and have degrees and know about literature and other school stuff. It's your understanding of Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon construction that lacks. THAT is my specialty. And I've spent a great many years studying it. So, take your degrees and shove em.

That's my opinion.

[Shulem]

Kish,

Honestly, arguing with you on some subject matters is like arguing with Ed Goble on the Book of Abraham. You are way out there, man. Dude, you loose me a lot.

Screw you for being rude about Ed. You really ought to look into the social worth of acting like an adult, learning to spell, and gaining an education on the matters you claim you care about.

Screw spelling. Screw school. Screw college! Spelling is the least of my worries.

Ur just jealous and acting out. Go take a breather.