Sometimes They Miss the Mark: ML on Halverson

[Kishkumen]

Maybe Kishkumen got offended by people questioning his continued faith and was too quick to label us? How many people read this discussion board anyway? I'm with Dr. Steuss and Res on this one. I make my statements as a way to reaffirm my own path as its taken me years to deprogram the years of religious programming.

I agree that Dr. Steuss has something there. I don’t think this idea of me being offended has any merit, but it is funny.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

As always, a well composed post. The academic in you is axiomatic.

I gotta be honest with you, after having read most of your posts over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion you’ve been so careful with how you describe your own faith, that it’s virtually impossible to actually know what it is that you believe outside a sort of maybe Methodist-Mormonism I suppose. And as such, it’s a little astonishing to read your painting of ex-Mormons with such a broad-brush using the term ‘stereotypical’ or to imply(?) that “we” have common cause with our approach to the Mormon church or possibly beyond that. I’d suggest we’re all as nuanced as I believe you express yourself to be, so perhaps maybe clarifying your views and juxtaposing them against “stereotypical” ex-Mormon views could help clarify your OP?

- Doc

[Doctor Steuss]

It does, and I think so. There is also the excitement that comes with acquiring a new perspective on things. People want to share. And some really feel like they are saving friends and family from a cult or a high-demand religion. All of these things can be true about different ex-LDS skeptics.

The saving friends and family has made me start thinking about how I'd feel if my parents, or my siblings were to lose their faith because of something I introduced them to, and just thinking about it is a whirlwind of thoughts/emotions.

Equal parts excited, and sad. Excited at the thought of how much time and money my parents would reclaim (my dad was recently called to the bishopric of his ward, and my mom tends to be on a round robin of Relief Society Pres, Organist, Primary Pres, Relief Society Pres...) BUT, I also know how much the LDS faith means to them on a personal level, and as a component of our overall family identity.***

Strangely, if it were to be a friend that did, the imagined response doesn't have any sense of sadness. Can't really figure out why that is(?)


***ETA. With siblings, the sadness aspect doesn't really seem to be there as much either. Maybe a level of selfishness on my part, as my immediate thought when imagining it is that I finally wouldn't be "alone."

[Kishkumen]

For the record I think there are many perfectly valid ways to leave Mormonism, atheism is not the only path forward. I can think of quite a few much better places to end up, like Judaism and Catholicism. Scientology and Jehovas Witnesses are two of the few religions that are probably worse places to settle on post-Mormonism, it’s a really short list in my opinion…

Thanks, drumdude. I don’t think leaving Mormonism is a terrible thing, and atheism is one of many OK ways of doing it.

[Kishkumen]

As always, a well composed post. The academic in you is axiomatic.

I gotta be honest with you, after having read most of your posts over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion you’ve been so careful with how you describe your own faith, that it’s virtually impossible to actually know what it is that you believe outside a sort of maybe Methodist-Mormonism I suppose. And as such, it’s a little astonishing to read your painting of ex-Mormons with such a broad-brush using the term ‘stereotypical’ or to imply(?) that “we” have common cause with our approach to the Mormon church or possibly beyond that. I’d suggest we’re all as nuanced as I believe you express yourself to be, so perhaps maybe clarifying your views and juxtaposing them against “stereotypical” ex-Mormon views could help clarify your opening post?

- Doc

I think the person I had in mind when I was writing is Bill Reel, not you or RFM. I know RFM is a very complex person. Reel comes off much less so in his comments in podcasts. I don’t know which people here are or are not going out to persuade others that Mormonism is false. My comments were really directed at those people, as I thought Halverson’s comments were. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, and I am sorry you felt I was oversimplifying and stereotyping that clumsily.

[sock puppet]

I don't mean it in the sense of an "inferior" faith but instead that there may be something about contemporary LDS beliefs that move ex-LDS people to more readily transition to skepticism than perhaps people in other churches.

I don't know if Mormons any moreso than those from other religions that leave go directly to being skeptics (the absence of any faith). I've simply not seen data on that. Assuming the rate of direct-to-skeptics is higher among ex-Mo's than ex-other religions, then perhaps it is because it seems to me many other Christian religions put Jesus first, the religion second. Such other religion is merely an assist to helping its adherents cultivate, deepen and continue their belief in Jesus. I think that is why if one has been baptized in one of those other religions, it is recognized as efficacious by the others.

Mormonism seems to put allegiance to the church ahead of the belief in diety. Recall Oaks' 1990s claim that it is wrong to call the Brethren out on something, even when they are wrong, and that God will reward what is, essentially, blind and unwaivering allegiance to the Brehren, even when they are wrong. So when the bubble of Mormon belief bursts, there's frequently no faith in anything left standing at the core--the "church" was what the faith was in.

[Kishkumen]

I don't know if Mormons any moreso than those from other religions that leave go directly to being skeptics (the absence of any faith). I've simply not seen data on that. Assuming the rate of direct-to-skeptics is higher among ex-Mo's than ex-other religions, then perhaps it is because it seems to me many other Christian religions put Jesus first, the religion second. Such other religion is merely an assist to helping its adherents cultivate, deepen and continue their belief in Jesus. I think that is why if one has been baptized in one of those other religions, it is recognized as efficacious by the others.

Mormonism seems to put allegiance to the church ahead of the belief in diety. Recall Oaks' 1990s claim that it is wrong to call the Brethren out on something, even when they are wrong, and that God will reward what is, essentially, blind and unwaivering allegiance to the Brehren, even when they are wrong. So when the bubble of Mormon belief bursts, there's frequently no faith in anything left standing at the core--the "church" was what the faith was in.

That sounds right to me. You are right that I do not know if Mormons really are more likely to go from faith to skepticism than other people who leave a church. That has been my impression, and I know that a lot of other people have had the same impression. If it is true, then I think the reason you bring up is one plausible explanation. I am inclined to agree with you.

[Kishkumen]

The saving friends and family has made me start thinking about how I'd feel if my parents, or my siblings were to lose their faith because of something I introduced them to, and just thinking about it is a whirlwind of thoughts/emotions.

Equal parts excited, and sad. Excited at the thought of how much time and money my parents would reclaim (my dad was recently called to the bishopric of his ward, and my mom tends to be on a round robin of Relief Society Pres, Organist, Primary Pres, Relief Society Pres...) BUT, I also know how much the LDS faith means to them on a personal level, and as a component of our overall family identity.***

Strangely, if it were to be a friend that did, the imagined response doesn't have any sense of sadness. Can't really figure out why that is(?)


***ETA. With siblings, the sadness aspect doesn't really seem to be there as much either. Maybe a level of selfishness on my part, as my immediate thought when imagining it is that I finally wouldn't be "alone."

So, perhaps I feel differently because my brothers quit the LDS Church long before I did. My father went inactive long before I did, and as far as I can tell he was never religiously oriented. The LDS Church was something he was raised in that he did until he grew tired of it. My mother is the only person in my family who is active and believing, but she is very independent of mind. Oh, my dad’s wife is also faithful and active, so that’s another family member who is active LDS. My dad remarried during my mission.

I would be sad if my mom left the LDS Church. I like remaining connected to it through family and friends. I just can’t see myself going back to it. My brothers lost interest in it pretty early on and would never go back. Neither would my dad.