Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

[Moksha]

This Lambretta looks uptodatu, showing the trueness of eternal progression.

[Fence Sitter]

Why do you believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Back in Autumn 1976 as a seventeen-year-old, I asked God if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, and God told me yes. That's why I believe in that Church.

God told my wife's best friend that her first husband would be her eternal mate. He also told her the same thing on each of her next three husbands. She is not a widow.
God has told many people that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet of His church.
The RLDS also believe the Book of Mormon to be true and pray about it the same way you do.

You may find this short video informative about the reliability your type of witness.
My LDS Journey - Follow the Spirit

[Chap]

I'd like to intervene here with the historical question: when did the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints begin to teach its members to say "the Church is true"?


[...]


So: who first taught Mormons to say "The church is true", and why did they do that?

(There is an interesting discussion of the uniqueness of this LDS practice by Kevin Barney here:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2015/01/21/ ... h-is-true/

... but it does not address my principal question - Who started this, when, and why? Can anybody here answer that?

In an attempt to answer my question, I decided to turn to the Joseph Smith papers and do a search to find if any such expression occurs there. I did get two positive results, as follows:

2 Results for “"the church is true"”
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Results 1 – 2 of 2
“I Had Seen a Vision” (The First Vision Podcast, Episode 6): Transcript
...the midst of this religious fervor, wondering about the state of his soul and, to that end, which of all the churches was true I am convinced that understanding Joseph Smith’ s world empowers us to better understand his first vision, and the visions,...
“What Was to Be Done” (The First Vision Podcast, Episode 2): Transcript
And in the way that many Latter- day Saints have heard the story, the pressing question for Joseph Smith was, Which of all the churches is true Which one was the correct church, or the church teaching the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ?

Both of these references, however are two words added by the modern author of the podcast, not by Smith himself. So it appears that Smith himself never used the expression "the church is true". Just as a backup, I turned to the accounts of the so-called "First Vision" given here:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/ ... rst-vision

I looked through all of them, and the nearest that any of these differing accounts gets is this:

History, circa June 1839–circa 1841 [Draft 2]

My object in going to enquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner therefore did I get possession of myself so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right, (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their Creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that “they draw near to me to with their lips but their hearts are far from me, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof.”

So I am no further forward. But whenever the expression "the church is true" was first put into the mouths of Mormons by their church leaders, I think I can guess why: that particular form of words contains a statement that is much less vulnerable to doubt or to disproof than some such statement as "the Book of Mormon is true" or "the Proclamation on the Family is true" or "Joseph Smith's description of how he found the golden plate is true". All that "the church is true" conveys is that whatever the church teaches is to be believed, without making any commitment that what is taught tomorrow will be the same as what is being taught today, or what was taught yesterday, and without specifying anything about what the teaching actually is. And that is a pretty clever thing for the Mormon church to get its members to commit themselves to.

Do any of the older readers of this board have any memories that would help us estimate how far back this phrase was being used in Mormon testimonies?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hrm, Chap asks an interesting question with regard to this theological development within Mormonism. I searched LDS.org for “the church is true” and it resulted in ten pages. From that hit the earliest use of the statement is from 1973 here (in a Q&A about reading bad bad awful anti-Mormon literature [Satan wins again!]:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... o?lang=eng

Before reading anti-Mormon literature, a person should be absolutely sure that the Church is true and should have a definite understanding of what he believes.

I’m not saying this is the earliest known ‘common use’ of the statement, but it might be helpful for us to timestamp its use and then work backward. Can you find an earlier popular use of the statement? If so, please post it here.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Here’s an earlier hit:

The statement made by Elder Smith that the existence of pre-adamites is not a doctrine of the Church is true.

Page 10, last para. ref. a discussion on evolution ~1927.

- Doc

[doubtingthomas]

God has told many people that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet of His church.

But you see. All religions have some portion of truth, including the FLDS church. Prophets are fallible human beings. Therefore, the Mormon church is true.

[Chap]

Here’s an earlier hit:

The statement made by Elder Smith that the existence of pre-adamites is not a doctrine of the Church is true.

Page 10, last para. ref. a discussion on evolution ~1927.

- Doc

I think your idea of a search like this is marvellous, and I think that your 1973 example is certainly the kind of thing I am looking for. However, the second (1927) example seems rather less convincing.

I agree the words "the church is true" do occur there, but not, I submit, as a proposition that is affirmed. I suggest that the words quoted could be analysed into the following components.

1. Elder Smith made a statement.

2. He stated that the existence of pre-Adamites is not a doctrine of the church.

3. Elder Smith's statement is true.

We could slightly repunctuate the sentence as follows:

The statement made by Elder Smith (that the existence of pre-adamites is not a doctrine of the Church) is true.

I strongly suspect that this is what the original writer intended to convey. Otherwise Elder Smith would have to be talking about a thing called "a doctrine of the church is true" which is not at all a natural structure in English.

[Rivendale]

God has told many people that Warren Jeffs is a true prophet of His church.

But you see. All religions have some portion of truth, including the FLDS church. Prophets are fallible human beings. Therefore, the Mormon church is true.

And that is what people who listened to Paul H Dunn told themselves over and over.

[huckelberry]

When did LDS testimonies using the phrase, I know the church is true, become standard? That is an interesting question in a way. Chap asked about personal awareness. I remember the phrase as standard through the 1960s. I understood it to mean that the church is a restoration established and guided by God. I would have guessed that the phrase had been standard for a long while yet I realized facing the question that I do not know when it became common or became completely standardized.

My guess would be when testimony meeting started. People stand up and bare their testimony, "I know the church is true, so and so is true prophet, some other doctrinal comment about Jesus.....

/// adding
google shows me official LDS website with article on fast and testimony meeting. It observes the meeting started in the 1830 and was held on Thursdays. Kirkland temple spiritual experiences were noted. No clue about the phrase in question though.

[Kishkumen]

D&C 1:30