God Creation

[Some Schmo]

The amusing thing about all this is that I had mostly stopped talking about religion. I was bored of the subject. I haven't looked at the Mormon related threads in ages. I was happy to live and let live.

The the Supreme Court has forced us all to reevaluate religion's poisonous influence. I'm not happy to have to think about this crap again.

[canpakes]

I know and have known many people of faith who would team up with this atheist to put that house in order. YECs don’t make up the majority of people of faith in the US. And many of them are happy to home school.

All that it takes is a handful of legislators to decide that everyone in the state is going to be learning and testing on creationism as the mechanism that produced the Earth, and everything on it.

Literally just a handful.

Arkansas's House Bill 1701 (PDF), sponsored by Mary Bentley (R-District 73), was narrowly defeated, on a 3-3 vote, in the Senate Education Committee on April 21, 2021. If enacted, the bill would have allowed teachers in the state's public and open-enrollment charter schools to "teach creationism as a theory of how the earth came to exist."

House Bill 1701 passed the House of Representatives on a 72-21 vote on April 7, 2021, after passing the House Education Committee on a voice vote on April 6, 2021, as the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (April 8, 2021) reported. Megan Godfrey (D-District 89) and Deborah Ferguson (D-District 51) were quoted as expressing opposition to the bill.

On the floor of the House, Ferguson reminded Bentley that the federal courts — including in McLean v. Arkansas (1982) — have repeatedly held that teaching creationism in the public schools is unconstitutional. In response, Bentley expressed the hope that, with changes in the Supreme Court, her bill might ultimately survive constitutional scrutiny.

[Jersey Girl]

This is me now responding to what Schmo posted in my authentic voice, representing myself and myself only.

Even if a god actually existed, any god concept is made up. Since it has never made itself known to mankind, we have to assume it's a product of imagination. It's a fiction created by every person talking about it.

I can well understand how and why you think that the god concept is manufactured nonsense. I've engaged with many an atheist who has shared the same position with me, made my way through many an interesting and informative exchanges, and heated exchanges. If you don't believe that, Gunnar would no doubt bear witness to that since we both came from a board where participants carried topics up to 300 posts per thread until the system locked the thread and then we'd continue on by opening another thread. This was facilitated in the wee hours on a totally uncensored board no less so the discussions were no holds barred! We called it an intellectual meat grinder because that's precisely what it was.

Apparently I held my own well enough to stay there for 10 years and remain friends with some of my adversaries (people far brighter, more well read, and more well educated than I could ever hope to be--I still don't understand what M String Theory is.) to this day. Gunnar isn't the only one of those on this board. I trust them and I have reason to believe that they trust me.

I had never knowingly known anyone who was atheist before that board. I always assumed that atheists (if I ever thought about it at all) were people who were mad at God. Mainly because I assumed God. I allowed myself to be taught by them and learn from them. I learned that many of them were former believers (well versed in the Biblical scripture) whose belief had simply eroded away in favor of logic, reason, and science. They smacked me around a good deal and in the process they taught me to think critically.

I still believe in God. They simply do not. Funny that asking someone if they believe in God isn't the first thing I want to know about a person. I want to know everything.

Whenever I hear someone talking about their god, all I can think these days is, "What a damned waste of energy. You are lying to everyone, but most importantly, yourself. What are all the burdens you are carrying because you feel required to hold on to the ridiculous god belief? How much money are you wasting?"

Well the thing is, is that I think that the folks you are likely referring to, are not very well schooled re: Biblical Scripture. I see this every day of my life on political news media coverage. I see loads of self proclaimed believers spouting stuff that is not found in the Bible at all, twisting things, taking things out of context to forward their own agenda. I often wonder if the Ancients (Israelites, etc.) weren't doing the same thing and attributing it to God's will especially when I read the Old Testament where the Israelites were ordered to drive folks out of their own land. Sounds a little like unrighteous dominion to me. Then again, I wasn't there so how would I know? There are plenty of folks that think that the Israelites weren't there either.

So you are asking there what burdens folks are carrying that we feel we are required to hold on to what you see as ridiculous belief. At this writing I'm not carrying any burdens at all. Anything in my history that I've encountered can easily be figured out by applying a bit of psychology and human development issues. Why did this happen? Why didn't that happen? I kind of look back and see how I've developed as a person, what my early influences were, how those molded me, how I ended up being who I am, what I did with my experiences and how I used them to the benefit of others and you can call me crazy all you like, but I've seen doors open to me that I attribute to God. Doors where I saw something in front of me but knew I wasn't prepared to walk through them. One experience after another taught me to just walk. I think that's what people call walking by faith. If it's not that, it's just me having courage. So really, not carrying burdens but developing as a person. Anyhow...

It's also occurred to me that living a religion is not only lying on a regular basis, but also the process of getting used to living a lie. People who are well-practiced at living their religion are well-practiced at lying to themselves and others. Lying is a lifestyle for the religious. It's hilarious how many religions teach that lying is bad when the very act of living a religion requires a lifestyle of lying. Religion is a disease that causes you to hold on to ridiculous beliefs, so lying to yourself becomes second nature. It's also a disease because once you're willing to believe outrageous religious claims, you'll believe other outrageous claims (like Trump cares about you, or anything but himself).

Here, you say, "People who are well-practiced at living their religion are well-practiced at lying to themselves and others. Lying is a lifestyle for the religious."

Hmmm...I don't see how striving to follow the commands and directions of God (and Jesus, the Trinity thing I can't really explain that) to adopt things such as kindness, patience, generosity, honesty, trying to manage anger (Christians do get pissed off, you know), being a more effective communicator (trying to refine language by eliminating profanity and name-calling which I suck at), helping others, and all of those things, is a form of lying or self deceit.

According to you, I believe outrageous claims so I naturally believe anything that comes out of Trump's mouth and you know that's not the case. If you ask me, HE is a disease.

Do you notice how you pivoted to politics there? That's probably why you wrote this post. I have no problem separating church and state. Apparently I am more Constitutional in my thinking than you are there Mr. Atheist.

It's obvious to me that religion is for people who can't face life on life's terms. They have to lie about the reality of things to simply cope. Religion is for people who haven't grown up yet. I'm so sick of the deference paid to idiotic religion.

Facing life on life's terms. I don't see how a person cannot face life on life's terms. That doesn't make logical sense to me. Do you mean like you know you should do something about whatever but you sit on your hands and "let go and let God" or something? Like you are lazy or scared or stubborn or something? I dunno...but okay.

Lessee. The hardest thing that life has ever thrown at me. I've had a LOT of things thrown at me in life. I'm talking all kinds of crap. By far the hardest thing that life has ever thrown at me though, was getting on a plane to rescue an assaulted trauma victim out of my mind scared shitless and the next day, entering an actual crime scene after investigators had ransacked the place, seeing blood on the furniture (etc) and knowing the blood that was spilled was that of a loved one then seeing that loved one that night in a funeral home with a bullet hole in their head. Seeing to all the details and then sustaining an effort to keep someone alive who didn't WANT to be alive.

I did that for 5 years. While others buckled around me, I did it. I steeled myself and did it. Put one foot in front of the other and kept going. Day after day, night after night, month after month, year after year. There were times when I prayed passionately, when I appealed to my God, was on my knees and BEGGED my God to stop the terror, times when I was too laser focused to stop to pray and just as many times when I stood up on my feet, shook my fist (literally) and swore at my God (literally, loudly, vocally).

Could I have faced life on life's terms without God? Sure maybe. But that's not how it worked with me in my mind. I am not, by nature, a weak person. I don't know a single person who knows me in real life who would say that about me. The two traits that people say first about me are that I am kind and that I am strong. I believe that God allowed me to experience things in my life that led me to develop those qualities. So...yes, I can face life on life's terms. I believe that I have learned genuine and life philosophies and ways of being, practical ways of approaching what I face on life's terms, that have made me develop courage and often times confidence, that helps me live my life regardless of what is thrown at me.

I was indoctrinated to God belief in childhood. I had no idea how it would impact me as an adult. To be fair, I rebelled like crazy as a teen. Didn't care about anyone but myself much less did I ever think or care about God. It's part of human development and well studied. That doesn't mean that Atheist folks are less than or more than. It's just that everyone has their journey in life. I've told you part of mine here. I'd venture a good guess that perhaps oh, 80% of Christians approach life more like I do. It's just that we don't make the news.

So I believe in God and you obviously don't. So what? (I'm rambling). I also believe in equality, tolerance for people who believe differently than I especially when it comes to the Constitution, I believe in hearing people out, I believe in choices.

I don't believe in throwing whole groups of people into a box and slapping a label on it. That, to me, is wholesale bigotry. I choose to challenge that way of thinking because I don't see that it involves actual thinking. I think it's more reactive and not really thought. I don't really blame people for being reactive especially when we're faced with all we're faced with in today's world. It's hard not to lash out. It's just that in this world where everything seems to be based on us v. them. I try to reach for the "we". Don't get me wrong, I lash out, too.

Just ask the Boy over here. Anyway, I'll see if there's anything else I want to address around here.

[Res Ipsa]

I know and have known many people of faith who would team up with this atheist to put that house in order. YECs don’t make up the majority of people of faith in the US. And many of them are happy to home school.

All that it takes is a handful of legislators to decide that everyone in the state is going to be learning and testing on creationism as the mechanism that produced the Earth, and everything on it.

Literally just a handful.

Arkansas's House Bill 1701 (PDF), sponsored by Mary Bentley (R-District 73), was narrowly defeated, on a 3-3 vote, in the Senate Education Committee on April 21, 2021. If enacted, the bill would have allowed teachers in the state's public and open-enrollment charter schools to "teach creationism as a theory of how the earth came to exist."

House Bill 1701 passed the House of Representatives on a 72-21 vote on April 7, 2021, after passing the House Education Committee on a voice vote on April 6, 2021, as the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (April 8, 2021) reported. Megan Godfrey (D-District 89) and Deborah Ferguson (D-District 51) were quoted as expressing opposition to the bill.

On the floor of the House, Ferguson reminded Bentley that the federal courts — including in McLean v. Arkansas (1982) — have repeatedly held that teaching creationism in the public schools is unconstitutional. In response, Bentley expressed the hope that, with changes in the Supreme Court, her bill might ultimately survive constitutional scrutiny.

That’s kind of how representative democracy works. The 3-3 vote was to move the bill out of committee. Would the senate have passed it?

There’s no question that groups in the religious right organized to take control of some state legislatures. You fight back by out organizing.

In terms of judges, the left needs an anti-federalist society to take on the fantasy of originalism.

But treating religious people as defective or inferior humans doesn’t seem to me to get society anywhere it wants to go. (Not saying that’s what you were doing.)

[Jersey Girl]

The amusing thing about all this is that I had mostly stopped talking about religion. I was bored of the subject. I haven't looked at the Mormon related threads in ages. I was happy to live and let live.

The the Supreme Court has forced us all to reevaluate religion's poisonous influence. I'm not happy to have to think about this crap again.

No one is forcing you to think about this crap again. You are choosing to think about it, dwell on it, until you want to pop off which is fine by me. Lord knows I do my fair share of popping off though not much lately.

The BS being dealt out by the the Supreme Court effects us all in some way. Just look at what I think as the unconstitutional ruling on Roe v. Wade. The all knowing the Supreme Court has opened up a can of worms and without forethought and cause chaos to reign in this country until the states sort it out and even when the states sort it out, there will be even more chaos in female lives and oppression.

Do you really think that Clarence Thomas is going to push to address interracial marriage? Not on your life! (Unless wifey incriminates herself and starts to drag him down the hole to the Jan 6th committee then maybe.) That's NOT because he's a God believer.

It's because he's a rip roaring misogynist control freak hypocrite.


You are missing the forest for the trees here. You aren't a helpless victim of the the Supreme Court. You do have a vote. You do have the opportunity to actively involve yourself in politics if you want to.

It's not about God. It's about hypocrites USING God to forward their agenda. If you don't like it then push back in a real life way.

[Jersey Girl]

Christians believe that God made himself known to mankind in the form of Jesus Christ as reported in the Bible, but I have seen no empirical evidence that this is based on fact. I haven't experienced a belief in God myself. I assume it's made up.

No. You haven't been paying attention. I told everyone that I did believe in a god for many years. I know first hand the process of creating a believable god in my head. That's what this thread is about.

This is your problem understanding what I'm saying. I am speaking from experience. If you had read what I wrote closely and honestly, you'd find it relatable, because I'm pretty sure no god has ever appeared to you. Unless you have direct experience with a god (real sensory experience, not the tingly feelings people enjoy attributing to their god), you had to have made him up.

As for the rest of your paraphrase, there's very little difference between what we wrote. Sprinkling "I think" throughout does nothing; I wrote it, so obviously it's what I think.

I have no problem paying attention. There is a huge difference between what you wrote and how I modified it. You spouted off as if everything you said about religion were fact when in fact, it is what YOU think about religion based on your subjective experiences, your personal observations, and the conclusions you draw from those.

And that is where you make your mistake.

I can't think of a single time when I've gotten a tingly feeling that I attribute to God. You're free to think it, but that hasn't been my experience. If I tingle over anything at all, I tingle when I see people overcoming significant obstacles in their life.

[canpakes]

That’s kind of how representative democracy works. The 3-3 vote was to move the bill out of committee. Would the senate have passed it?

I have to admit that I’m surprised that it didn’t make it out of committee, considering that when voted upon by the Representatives, the count ‘in favor’ was 3 to 1. I wouldn’t be making any bets that the Senate response would have differed much.

But treating religious people as defective or inferior humans doesn’t seem to me to get society anywhere it wants to go. (Not saying that’s what you were doing.)

I agree. As example, my own FIL is a wonderful man with a big heart and a keen intellect, generous with his time and talents to many. He’s completely on board with an LDS narrative that my SO and I regard to be un-believeable under any circumstance, but we respect that he is the man that he is in part due to his devotion to his faith and its basic principles. As he bases his identity within that faith, I have no desire to try to put a wedge between him and his beliefs. What purpose would that serve?

Similarly, I would prefer that he would not be politically active in the way that many evangelicals are. We’ve both made our decisions and neither of us should be trying to constrain the other within our own boxes.

[Jersey Girl]

Finally am getting to sit with this post. I saw it flipping by when I was posting.

My personal experience with people of faith is so different than what’s described here that I feel like I’ve fallen into the upside down. My closest friends have been been all over the map in terms of religious belief. I’ve never had religious issues damage a friendship of alienate a family member. Maybe I’m extraordinarily lucky. Or maybe folks here are an atypical sample of nonbelievers.

Yep. Most of my friends in real life are believers though not all. Not by any means. Actually it's probably about half and half. In fact, I'd challenge anyone to tour my Facebook page where I can be seen interacting with friends and family, and pick out the believers, non believers, and the unaffiliated. I actually don't swear on Facebook but that has more to do with trying to maintain a hospitable environment on my page where everyone feels welcome to pitch in a comment or whatever. People seem to cooperate with that.

I rarely discuss religion with people in real life unless it comes up in discussion especially when I am asked to pray for a person or if I am trying to explain the basis for a decision I've made or how I am viewing a situation just like I do here. I'm the same in real life as I am right here. Some of my own children are atheists and so are their associates. Everyone is welcome in my life, in my home, and I don't differentiate between people according to their personally held beliefs or lack thereof. Ain't nobody beating anyone else over the head around here. I'm just as apt to listen to friends and family express their political views as I am right here. They all belong to me. I love them.

I obviously disagree strongly with the political agenda of some religious folks who want to legally enforce their religious moral codes on others. If anyone has tried to bring abstinence based sexual education in my kids’ public schools, I’d have raised holy hell. Or if a Christian group tried to take over my local school board to put creationism in the curriculum, I’d be on the warpath. I think those battles are worth fighting because combining church and state ruins both

.

You and me both!

But I can do that without dehumanizing my fellow humans who are people of faith. Reading the above is like reading some kind of weird funhouse version of Ajax ranting about BLM. Is the plan that we all become little bundles of bigotry and hatred? Are we all going machete shopping?

Right? Our survival depends on collaboration. That's probably why this country and our stupid government (Heck, the world) is in chaos mode at the moment.

I really don’t get it.

People are stressed. People are angry. People are frustrated and they feel powerless. I get stressed. I get angry. I get frustrated. I mainly decide how I want to navigate life, how I want to interact with people in real life, who I want to be to people even those I don't know, what kind of vibes I want to put into out into the world, and go on about the business of doing it.

[Jersey Girl]

Hey canpakes,

I noticed that you posted two quotes (one by MTG) on this thread. If you have time, could you put up oh maybe 4 of that type of religion based quote for me to reply to? It's okay if you'd rather not or don't have time to spare. I'd really like to take a crack at that kind of thing.

[canpakes]

Could I have faced life on life's terms without God? Sure maybe. But that's not how it worked with me in my mind. I am not, by nature, a weak person. I don't know a single person who knows me in real life who would say that about me. The two traits that people say first about me are that I am kind and that I am strong. I believe that God allowed me to experience things in my life that led me to develop those qualities. So...yes, I can face life on life's terms. I believe that I have learned genuine and life philosophies and ways of being, practical ways of approaching what I face on life's terms, that have made me develop courage and often times confidence, that helps me live my life regardless of what is thrown at me.

I’d guess that folks on Schmo’s side of the fence would ask you why you don’t accept that you achieved that level of personal strength via your own faculties, and not because you prayed, and were supposedly otherwise ‘helped’ by God in some mysterious and unexplained way.

I understand that POV; I’d lean towards that question myself. But I’m also aware that the human spirit sometimes seems strengthened and able to do more than what it consciously decides its limits are, if it believes that it has support from something or someone else. So, many people of faith utilize prayer as a way to realize the abilities that they may not otherwise be aware of.

It’s probably a bad analogy, but when I was just learning to ride a bicycle and still heavily dependent - in my mind - on its training wheels, my father surreptitiously removed them one morning (much like - I’d imagine - just about everyone else’s parents do at some point when trying to get their child to ride unassisted). Later that day, I hopped on that bicycle and rode away, not having a care or difficulty in the world. I didn’t know that the training wheels weren’t there until 10 minutes into my ride, but I had believed that they were, and that allowed me to do something that I never thought possible before that moment.