Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

[Philo Sofee]

That “backwater 19th century con man” did have some good ideas and espouse some noble sentiments.

Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Well, yes. Can an evil person do good? Of course. What one does is either good or bad to a lot of different people, since good and bad are relative terms, depending on context, and depending on who is affected.

[Doctor Scratch]

He gave an interview on a podcast, if memory serves--it may have been the one where Dan Wotherspoon was the interviewer--where he *did* related a "spiritual experience." He said that one of his kids had a piece of meat stuck in their throat, and so he either said a prayer or gave the kid a priesthood blessing and voila! The piece of meat was dislodged! He's publicly discussed this, so I don't understand why he's reluctant to go into this sort of thing, unless he's concerned about getting made fun of or something.

[Kishkumen]

Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Do you believe that it can’t or is this just a rhetorical question?

[Dr Moore]

I don’t think it makes sense to try and minimize the personal meaning of anyone’s internal experiences. That strategy is sure to fail, and always makes the attacker look bad.

From my case, no one ever succeeded in convincing me to challenge my beliefs about the church. That only happened after I experienced a deeply internal event, in response to learning more about factual church history, science, and the life of Joseph Smith. That event could never have been set in motion by someone attacking what was there before. I had to choose to study new information, and then allow myself permission to attack my own beliefs.

[drumdude]

Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Well, yes. Can an evil person do good? Of course. What one does is either good or bad to a lot of different people, since good and bad are relative terms, depending on context, and depending on who is affected.

Something that is false, like Scientology, can certainly have good ideas within it and even be a force for good in someone’s life.

The objective truth of that religion’s truth claims still matter. Do they Trump everything? Do we let the elderly widow believe her noble lie or do we try to enlighten her? I’m not sure I know the answer.

[Gadianton]

Dr. Shades brings up a good point, as most of us are former Mormons. If we judge Smith by the criteria Chapel Mormonism tells us to, then we've all been too kind. It's Chapel Mormonism that offers forks such as, either the Book of Mormonism is of God or it's the most evil book contrived by Satan himself. That's a backhanded way of complimenting itself, of course, to exaggerate the importance of Mormonism across all scenarios, but nevertheless, that's what's taught. And then there's the extreme moralism in terms of honesty and sexual purity. By Chapel Mormonism standards, nobody should ever listen to Smith for two seconds given his failings in these areas.

[Kishkumen]

Dr. Shades brings up a good point, as most of us are former Mormons. If we judge Smith by the criteria Chapel Mormonism tells us to, then we've all been too kind. It's Chapel Mormonism that offers forks such as, either the Book of Mormonism is of God or it's the most evil book contrived by Satan himself. That's a backhanded way of complimenting itself, of course, to exaggerate the importance of Mormonism across all scenarios, but nevertheless, that's what's taught. And then there's the extreme moralism in terms of honesty and sexual purity. By Chapel Mormonism standards, nobody should ever listen to Smith for two seconds given his failings in these areas.

That's great, Dean. Very well put.

Really, most people can't handle the facts when the dilemmas they are fed place them in such jeopardy.

[Kishkumen]

I don’t think it makes sense to try and minimize the personal meaning of anyone’s internal experiences. That strategy is sure to fail, and always makes the attacker look bad.

From my case, no one ever succeeded in convincing me to challenge my beliefs about the church. That only happened after I experienced a deeply internal event, in response to learning more about factual church history, science, and the life of Joseph Smith. That event could never have been set in motion by someone attacking what was there before. I had to choose to study new information, and then allow myself permission to attack my own beliefs.

Your experience is very normal in that regard. Most people resist a frontal assault to their personal beliefs coming from others. The change first happens within. Then one is primed to be open to different possibilities.

[doubtingthomas]

I don’t think it makes sense to try and minimize the personal meaning of anyone’s internal experiences. That strategy is sure to fail, and always makes the attacker look bad.

I wasn't attacking Peterson.

I hope the FAIR conference includes a presentation on how to feel the voice of the spirit. I suspect the vast majority of church members are confused about that.

How would you scrutinize a spiritual revelation without sharing it?

How do you know your spiritual experiences are not the result of some cognitive bias?

I don't think the average person would see my questions and comments as aggressive.

That only happened after I experienced a deeply internal event

It's a process that could take years.

Most people resist a frontal assault to their personal beliefs coming from others. The change first happens within. Then one is primed to be open to different possibilities.

I wasn't attacking Peterson or the church. I was simply trying to get him to think a little bit. I succeed, Peterson said he was "Reflecting on" "assertions". I just have no idea what "assertions" he is talking about.

[Rivendale]

He gave an interview on a podcast, if memory serves--it may have been the one where Dan Wotherspoon was the interviewer--where he *did* related a "spiritual experience." He said that one of his kids had a piece of meat stuck in their throat, and so he either said a prayer or gave the kid a priesthood blessing and voila! The piece of meat was dislodged! He's publicly discussed this, so I don't understand why he's reluctant to go into this sort of thing, unless he's concerned about getting made fun of or something.

That interview is here and clipped at the appropriate time where Daniel describes a miraculous event involving his son after a priesthood blessing. https://youtu.be/CT68sIf4gAw?t=3867. ETA: This could be easily tested at all the hospitals around the world. Maybe it would discount the study on intercessory prayer. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/

Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.