How long/intensely did you believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

[MG 2.0]

And I keep coming back to this thing called faith. I know it sounds like a cop out. I get that. The result a creator God not fully revealing Himself…the silver platter God I referred to earlier…is that we see MANY folks taking different and varied paths of/to ‘truth’. The question I would ask in connection with this is whether or not this is a bug or a feature.

Agency and choice would demand that it is a feature.

Would you disagree?

You would have to admit, I think, that the overall result of God not fully revealing Himself willy nilly is that throughout the world and its history we observe people making choices between right and wrong…and deciding what right and wrong are…based upon their own internal compasses that either do or don’t lead them and others towards a ‘greater good’. Independent human beings making choices without constant intervention and/or knowledge of ‘big brother’ standing over them every minute of every day of existence.

I see that as a plus as far as personal growth and progress are concerned.

Of course, there IS the downside…

But that’s where the Atonement of Jesus Christ may play an integral part in the ‘plan’.

Regards,
MG

You could have the same thing if god were around or at least if he popped in from time to time. If god were around, we could choose to follow him or not, just like in the supposed pre-existence. Our parents, for most of us, were around, perhaps still, giving guidance and we still had and have the ability to choose for ourselves. Do your parents stand over you constantly? Does the fact that your parents were around negate your freedom of choice?

I think we’ve had this discussion before. I’m feeling a tinge of deja vu.

What would it look like globally if throughout history God would have…and would do so now…”pop in”?

What would the ramifications be?

Would whatever plan God might have for individuals and their eternal progress be frustrated or curtailed?

Comparing God’s human family with your’s or my smaller family units might be comparing apples and oranges.

Seriously, what would God’s “popping in” really look like?

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

You could have the same thing if god were around or at least if he popped in from time to time. If god were around, we could choose to follow him or not, just like in the supposed pre-existence. Our parents, for most of us, were around, perhaps still, giving guidance and we still had and have the ability to choose for ourselves. Do your parents stand over you constantly? Does the fact that your parents were around negate your freedom of choice?

I think we’ve had this discussion before. I’m feeling a tinge of deja vu.

What would it look like globally if throughout history God would have…and would do so now…”pop in”?

What would the ramifications be?

Would whatever plan God might have for individuals and their eternal progress be frustrated or curtailed?

Comparing God’s human family with your’s or my smaller family units might be comparing apples and oranges.

Seriously, what would God’s “popping in” really look like?

Regards,
MG

There would be less confusion regarding religion. There are seemingly as many interpretations about this subject as there are people on the earth. Having a god around from time to time would clear this up.

There would be less leadership mistakes like the big one where the bishops in AZ allowed the pedophile to continue his wicked ways without reporting it to the police.

There would be less inane decisions that are pawned off as "revelation" like disallowing the use of "Mormon" or changing schedules or the Nov 5 fiasco that had to be walked back. God isn't around and so we are forced to rely on a man that makes stuff up, that makes mistakes all the time because god chooses to not communicate clearly and directly.

Better communication. Questions regarding your view of what exactly is eternal progress would be resolved. Perhaps you are misguided due to the utter lack of direct communication over the centuries? We'd get the answer to the question of where were the Nephites and why didn't they leave a trace of their existence? It would solve the question of why he couldn't forgive sin without the bloody sacrifice of his son. Seems unnecessary. Perhaps as Joseph Smith claimed all religions are still wrong.

To answer your last question, it would probably look like conference where periodically god would appear and speak and give advice and/or correct confusion. Wasn't that the goal of Joseph Smith in his supposed restoration, to correct the wrongs?

[MG 2.0]

I think we’ve had this discussion before. I’m feeling a tinge of deja vu.

What would it look like globally if throughout history God would have…and would do so now…”pop in”?

What would the ramifications be?

Would whatever plan God might have for individuals and their eternal progress be frustrated or curtailed?

Comparing God’s human family with your’s or my smaller family units might be comparing apples and oranges.

Seriously, what would God’s “popping in” really look like?

Regards,
MG

There would be less confusion regarding religion. There are seemingly as many interpretations about this subject as there are people on the earth. Having a god around from time to time would clear this up.

There would be less leadership mistakes like the big one where the bishops in AZ allowed the pedophile to continue his wicked ways without reporting it to the police.

There would be less inane decisions that are pawned off as "revelation" like disallowing the use of "Mormon" or changing schedules or the Nov 5 fiasco that had to be walked back. God isn't around and so we are forced to rely on a man that makes stuff up, that makes mistakes all the time because god chooses to not communicate clearly and directly.

Better communication. Questions regarding your view of what exactly is eternal progress would be resolved. Perhaps you are misguided due to the utter lack of direct communication over the centuries? We'd get the answer to the question of where were the Nephites and why didn't they leave a trace of their existence? It would solve the question of why he couldn't forgive sin without the bloody sacrifice of his son. Seems unnecessary. Perhaps as Joseph Smith claimed all religions are still wrong.

To answer your last question, it would probably look like conference where periodically god would appear and speak and give advice and/or correct confusion. Wasn't that the goal of Joseph Smith in his supposed restoration, to correct the wrongs?

Wouldn’t this direct marketing approach result in a certain degree of coercion on God’s part? Where would agency and choice enter in?

Not to even mention diversity of thought, etc.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

There would be less confusion regarding religion. There are seemingly as many interpretations about this subject as there are people on the earth. Having a god around from time to time would clear this up.

There would be less leadership mistakes like the big one where the bishops in AZ allowed the pedophile to continue his wicked ways without reporting it to the police.

There would be less inane decisions that are pawned off as "revelation" like disallowing the use of "Mormon" or changing schedules or the Nov 5 fiasco that had to be walked back. God isn't around and so we are forced to rely on a man that makes stuff up, that makes mistakes all the time because god chooses to not communicate clearly and directly.

Better communication. Questions regarding your view of what exactly is eternal progress would be resolved. Perhaps you are misguided due to the utter lack of direct communication over the centuries? We'd get the answer to the question of where were the Nephites and why didn't they leave a trace of their existence? It would solve the question of why he couldn't forgive sin without the bloody sacrifice of his son. Seems unnecessary. Perhaps as Joseph Smith claimed all religions are still wrong.

To answer your last question, it would probably look like conference where periodically god would appear and speak and give advice and/or correct confusion. Wasn't that the goal of Joseph Smith in his supposed restoration, to correct the wrongs?

Wouldn’t this direct marketing approach result in a certain degree of coercion on God’s part? Where would agency and choice enter in?

Not to even mention diversity of thought, etc.

Regards,
MG

And a prophet doesn't to the same thing as Doc Cam says above? Also, were we automatons in the supposed pre-existence because god and Jesus were around? No, not according to what Joseph Smith made up. There was a choice and 1/3 supposedly failed. Anyway, just because a leader or parent or god appears, doesn't automatically mean coercion. You're jumping to this conclusion because it is a big hole in the religion you continually push here. Was Joseph Smith coerced because he saw god, allegedly? How about the other prophets who allegedly saw and spoke with god, were they coerced?

[MG 2.0]

Was Joseph Smith coerced because he saw god, allegedly? How about the other prophets who allegedly saw and spoke with god, were they coerced?

In a certain sense, yes, they were constrained/pressured into acting in the office into which they were appointed. They could, of course, have chosen otherwise. But to do so would have had consequences.

You are, in a sense, wanting to put EVERYONE on the planet under the same constraints and pressures as a prophet.

How would THAT work out?

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

Was Joseph Smith coerced because he saw god, allegedly? How about the other prophets who allegedly saw and spoke with god, were they coerced?

In a certain sense, yes, they were constrained/pressured into acting in the office into which they were appointed. They could, of course, have chosen otherwise. But to do so would have had consequences.

You are, in a sense, wanting to put EVERYONE on the planet under the same constraints and pressures as a prophet.

How would THAT work out?

Regards,
MG

It would work out just the same because everyone would have the same conditions, relatively speaking. However, in my example everyone would know the answer to "is there a god" question and wouldn't have to waste time on it and wouldn't have to trust charlatans or the delusional about religion. They would be free from all the frauds out there and could then focus on other pursuits. And there could still be a test and you could still shine, like you probably desire. It'd be a similar test like the pre-existence was except with the added body/natural man there with god giving his commandments in a clear fashion and seeing who would worship him.

This brings up another questionable point to your religion. Why on earth does your god require worship in the first place? Do you demand that of your children? I don't. Why would I unless I were a self-absorbed guy bent on giving obstacles to my children. Demanding worship invites rebellion and probably your god knows that since he is so perfect and all. So, that requirement necessarily leads to people going astray, just like he wants?

It is an incredibly unfair "test" to base everything on trusting bozos who make things up about god and arbitrarily make requirements about supposedly following him when he isn't anywhere to be found. Nelson clearly makes up stuff about paying tithing and how it's supposedly going to make the Africans better off. He claims god commanded him to change the sunday schedules? Or how he makes up the nonsense about the word "Mormon" etc. We're supposed to trust this guy? No thanks.

[MG 2.0]

In a certain sense, yes, they were constrained/pressured into acting in the office into which they were appointed. They could, of course, have chosen otherwise. But to do so would have had consequences.

You are, in a sense, wanting to put EVERYONE on the planet under the same constraints and pressures as a prophet.

How would THAT work out?

Regards,
MG

It would work out just the same because everyone would have the same conditions, relatively speaking.

Yeah, that political philosophy has always worked out well. Everyone has to or feels compelled to toe the party line of dear leader. I really can’t see God using a failed system to bring His children along a path of eternal progress. You seem to be promoting the plan proposed by Satan.

However, in my example everyone would know the answer to "is there a god" question…

Again, this sounds like Satan’s plan. Follow dear leader and ALL will be saved. And I…god of this world…will receive the glory.

…and wouldn't have to waste time on it…

What if this is part of the reason we’re here? To search out and find God.

…and wouldn't have to trust charlatans or the delusional about religion.

That’s what goes along with agency and REAL choice.

They would be free from all the frauds out there and could then focus on other pursuits.

Born with a silver spoon in hand. No work and struggle to find meaning through focused effort.

And there could still be a test…

Not much of a test when the important answers are all given in advance. Not only that, but knowing who the test taker is and that they have a definite bias as to what you ought to do…even though you would REALLY like/want to choose differently. What kind of a test is that?

God is the test giver and says, “Don’t smoke dope”. You really want to smoke dope. Where’s that going to end up? God is the test giver and says, “No extramarital sex”. You are tempted and fail to keep His DIRECT commands. Where’s that going to leave you?

On the other hand, if you’re making choices on your own with guidance from a third party it seems as though you then have a greater degree of latitude in your decisions. You have to DECIDE whether or not a directive comes from God. And it may or may not. YOU have to decide.

When accountability is factored into THAT formula I think there is less opportunity for ‘condemnation’ or ‘judgement’ from God.

But he/she that does know God’s will and fails to follow it is under greater pressure to obey. There may be folks that actually find a way to circumnavigate around the will of God by throwing ALL gods out the window.

Better to be safe than sorry, so to speak.

So your position puts EVERYONE in a position of high risk for REAL failure if they don’t obey the direct commands of God. After all, He’s RIGHT THERE watching you. And you KNOW it. Would you really want to live under those conditions?

Soft Totalitarianism.

…and you could still shine, like you probably desire. It'd be a similar test like the pre-existence was except with the added body/natural man there with god giving his commandments in a clear fashion and seeing who would worship him.

Doomed to failure. We’re not all a bunch of robots/automatons. We are diverse. We want to make our OWN choices.

You think God is all about who will worship Him? C’mon. Look around.

God is all about free will and choice. You seemingly want to strip this ‘prime directive’ away from Him…and from us.

This brings up another questionable point to your religion. Why on earth does your god require worship in the first place?

Worship is recognition and obedience. But as you can readily see, He doesn’t demand it. If so, you’re a failure.

Do you demand that of your children? I don't.

I’m hoping they will follow and obey. But no, I can’t/won’t force them. Neither does Heavenly Father.

Demanding worship invites rebellion and probably your god knows that since he is so perfect and all.

You appear to be describing Satan’s plan again.

It is an incredibly unfair "test" to base everything on trusting bozos who make things up about god and arbitrarily make requirements about supposedly following him when he isn't anywhere to be found. Nelson clearly makes up stuff about paying tithing and how it's supposedly going to make the Africans better off. He claims god commanded him to change the sunday schedules? Or how he makes up the nonsense about the word "Mormon" etc. We're supposed to trust this guy? No thanks.

There is always going to be risk involved when God turns things over to humans. He can guide and correct, but not coerce, those that lead and guide his church.

You might do well in a Church of the Silver Platter god.

Thanks for a civil conversation even though we disagree.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

So unlike the germ theory of disease, we cannot ever prove Mormonism true.

Not to everyone, that is true. But as I asked in my previous post, is that a bug or a feature?

Regards,
MG

Divine Hiddenness is indistinguishable from a God that does not exist.

It's like walking into a differential equations class with no professor, given an exam that is a blank piece of paper, and being told to close your eyes and imagine the right answer.

If that's the way God operates, we are all going to fail horribly. There's no way to tell what you believe is real or self delusion. If everyone on Earth believed in the same hidden God, you might have a better chance. And that might be an indication of something real. The fact that there are thousands of incompatible Gods means the more likely situation is that mankind has invented all of them.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

But as you can readily see, He doesn’t demand it. If so, you’re a failure.

... Neither does Heavenly Father.

You know. For a guy who has ‘studied his ass off’ with regard to Mormonism, you sure are ignorant of Mormonism, the Bible, the words of ‘prophets’ and various Mormon priesthood utterances, and so forth.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... p?lang=eng

Now, Control + Find ‘commanded’.

So, which is it? Are you ignorant despite a lifetime of study and devotion, or are you lying again?

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

Not to everyone, that is true. But as I asked in my previous post, is that a bug or a feature?

Regards,
MG

Divine Hiddenness is indistinguishable from a God that does not exist.

It's like walking into a differential equations class with no professor, given an exam that is a blank piece of paper, and being told to close your eyes and imagine the right answer.

If that's the way God operates, we are all going to fail horribly. There's no way to tell what you believe is real or self delusion. If everyone on Earth believed in the same hidden God, you might have a better chance. And that might be an indication of something real. The fact that there are thousands of incompatible Gods means the more likely situation is that mankind has invented all of them.

Although when you shrink that number down to those that believe in a ‘God who weeps’ and one in whose image we are created, the number becomes much smaller. If you’ve got to start somewhere looking for the True God it seems reasonable to look at a God who created us to become like Him.

Reasonable?

Where would you start your journey in looking for the True God?

I’m sure you haven’t given up, right?

So what steps and/or methodologies have you come up with so far in order to get it right?

Or do you see it as a fruitless endeavor and you’ve moved on beyond childish imaginations?

Regards,
MG