Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem
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Re: Dan Vogel and Captain Kidd

Post by Shulem »

Dan Vogel would like Stephen D. Ricks to “explain Cumora Islands and Moroni” with regard to ancient names of the Book of Mormon and how names were derived as he indicated in the chat in the Backyard Professor’s recent podcast.


Image


It might interest Vogel in knowing there was no pirate history on the Pacific Coast of North, South, and Central America! None! It makes little sense for Joseph Smith to send Lehi to Chile when he can put him on a notable route such as one Captain Kidd took. Doesn’t that make sense? Thus, Lehi sailed south from Arabia down towards Madagascar (waving past Captain Kidd’s future treasure island) and around the horn of Africa into the great Atlantic and northward to Delmarva.

Yes. That is what I believe Joseph envisioned when he imagined Lehi sailing to America.

What do you think of them apples, Dan? Captain Kidd is the key in understanding how Smith envisioned men sailing across the ocean and up the rivers.

;)
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The Backyard Professor

Post by Shulem »

I am very much looking forward to this:

Backyard Professor

Do make sure that you refresh yourself on these important threads that showcase Delmarva. This is the Royal Flush of Book of Mormon geography. Nobody can beat my winning hand! It’s like the Powerball jackpot.

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Re: Dan Vogel cites Captain Kidd

Post by dan vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:08 am
Vogel’s recent podcast interview (Aug 31, 2022) mentions Captain Kidd’s alleged treasure in association to Joseph Smith’s treasure digging. Thus, the lore of Kidd’s treasure is brough closer to Smith via the Susquehanna River which I believe is the same river in which Joseph Smith envisioned Hagoth sailing from the west sea of the narrow neck “into the land northward”.

Dan Vogel wrote:
video snip
Dan Vogel Interview part 1- Magical Worldview & Seer Stones

Robert (William) Kidd, he was a pirate and eventually caught and hung, hanged, in London. So, the tale was that Robert (William) Kidd, Captain Kidd, buried his treasure along the Atlantic shore of America of the United States and so treasure digging was more prevalent along that shore but the people that were inland kind of started trying to tap into that lore also by saying that Captain Kidd may have not buried it on the shore, maybe he buried his treasure upstream, along the streamways, that connected to the Atlantic, various people would be digging for Captain Kidd’s treasure along there….
Dan Vogel wrote:
video snip
Dan Vogel Interview part 1- Magical Worldview & Seer Stones

What I was going to mention was that the waterways, and one of them was that maybe Captain Kidd went up the Susquehanna River and the Susquehanna River goes through Harmony Pennsylvania. This is the river that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized themselves in and it’s the river in the house Joseph lived in was in feet of this river and they believe that in 1825 when Joseph Smith was hired by Josiah Stowell to go there, and he had dug the previous year without success….
Dan Vogel wrote:
video snip
Dan Vogel Interview part 1- Magical Worldview & Seer Stones

Josiah Stowell wasn’t the first to dig on this hill either, there were two previous digs at the same location without success. So, they had imagined that the treasure of the pirates had gone up the Susquehanna and stopped there and dug a hole and buried the treasure in it and it was enchanted and so when Josiah Stowell went and hired Joseph Smith to take him there in November, so he had dug on it in the summer before this November 1825, or October, in November they finally got there and when they got there on the 11th if I’m not mistaken, they signed a contract there and this is where Joseph Smith met Isaac Hale, Emma Hale’s Father, because some of the money diggers were boarding with him.

Dan,

If Joseph Smith can imagine Captain Kidd sailing up the Susquehanna River to bury treasure then it’s equally reasonable that he could envision Hagoth sailing up the same river to deposit his treasure which consisted of people looking for a better life.

;)
I don't follow your logic here. The West Sea is the Susquehanna River?
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Re: Dan Vogel and Captain Kidd

Post by dan vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:02 pm
Dan Vogel would like Stephen D. Ricks to “explain Cumora Islands and Moroni” with regard to ancient names of the Book of Mormon and how names were derived as he indicated in the chat in the Backyard Professor’s recent podcast.


Image


It might interest Vogel in knowing there was no pirate history on the Pacific Coast of North, South, and Central America! None! It makes little sense for Joseph Smith to send Lehi to Chile when he can put him on a notable route such as one Captain Kidd took. Doesn’t that make sense? Thus, Lehi sailed south from Arabia down towards Madagascar (waving past Captain Kidd’s future treasure island) and around the horn of Africa into the great Atlantic and northward to Delmarva.

Yes. That is what I believe Joseph envisioned when he imagined Lehi sailing to America.

What do you think of them apples, Dan? Captain Kidd is the key in understanding how Smith envisioned men sailing across the ocean and up the rivers.

;)
Sorry, I don't see the connection. Lehi and Captain Kidd were different people. Why would the story of Captain Kidd constrain his story about the origin of the Indians?
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Re: Dan Vogel cites Captain Kidd

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dan vogel wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:24 pm
I don't follow your logic here. The West Sea is the Susquehanna River?

Sea West is all of Chesapeake Bay that flanks the western coast of Delmarva. The Susquehanna River leads into the land northward. That is where Captain Kidd and Hagoth exited the bay and entered the river.
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Re: Dan Vogel and Captain Kidd

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dan vogel wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:27 pm
Sorry, I don't see the connection. Lehi and Captain Kidd were different people. Why would the story of Captain Kidd constrain his story about the origin of the Indians?

Joseph knew about Captain Kidd’s voyages based on the novels he read and maps and globes in which he consulted. Cumorah and Moroni are words that were associated with such voyages that caught his attention -- hence, “Cumora Islands and Moroni” in which you want Stephen D. Ricks to explain how those words from that geography managed to find its way into the Book of Mormon. Well, those words found their way in the same way Lehi’s route found its way into the Book of Mormon via or thanks to Captain Kidd.

Captain Kidd is the key.
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Re: Dan Vogel cites Captain Kidd

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dan vogel wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:24 pm
I don't follow your logic here. The West Sea is the Susquehanna River?
That would be an excellent question if we postulated that the West Sea was actually the Bay of Belfalas south of Gondor.
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Re: Dan Vogel cites Captain Kidd

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:38 am
dan vogel wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:24 pm
I don't follow your logic here. The West Sea is the Susquehanna River?
That would be an excellent question if we postulated that the West Sea was actually the Bay of Belfalas south of Gondor.

Please allow me to quote my assistant (Doctor CamNC4Me) who came to an understanding and marked the map to correspond with how he understood exactly what is described in the story of the Book of Mormon.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:14 pm
Alma wrote:And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.


Image

I think Joseph Smith pictured Hagoth heading up the Susquehanna river.

Also, this is the key phrase which Shulem nailed, and I want to reiterate also:
Alma wrote:And thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water there being a SMALL NECK OF LAND between the land northward and the land southward.
So, the area described is surrounded by water, save the small neck of land which Shulem details in earlier posts. There is literally no geographic region in the Americas that matches the description, save the delmarva peninsula. If Joseph Smith was plagiarizing the Late War (shout out to Dan Peterson), there simply isn’t any other explanation for this description to be included in the Book of Mormon. In poker, this is a tell. Joseph Smith gives his hand away, his plagiarism of the Late War by including these relatively unnecessary literary details.

- Doc

Folks, this is not rocket science. It’s Joseph Smith tipping his hand by using a map. All we have to do is use our brain because the answer is right in front of our faces.

:idea:
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Re: Dan Vogel and Captain Kidd

Post by Shulem »

dan vogel wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:27 pm
Sorry, I don't see the connection. Lehi and Captain Kidd were different people. Why would the story of Captain Kidd constrain his story about the origin of the Indians?

Dan,

Allow me to answer your question in a roundabout way in which you may least expect. You know the history of Smith’s claims about how the gold plates were allegedly unburied on top of the hill Cumorah. That is the birthplace of the Book of Mormon. That very spot of ground is where Moroni ended his story and buried his plates. For all intents and purposes, the story of the Book of Mormon ends at Cumorah. Moroni’s life and mission was over after he deposited the plates and stood upon that hill, empty handed in New York State.

Did Joseph Smith think to identify where poor Moroni may have gone after that? Did Smith even think to claim where his body may have been buried -- the very location of the last Book of Mormon prophet who allegedly appeared to him in his bedroom in the middle of the night? Where on God’s green earth was Moroni resurrected? Don’t you think it somewhat peculiar that Joseph Smith never staked a memorial plot in honor of Moroni’s burial? We are told that he simply buried the plates and that was the end of it. No more Moroni. End of story. That is a hole in Smith’s script! Death, burial, and resurrection go hand in hand and Smith dropped the ball on that one!

Another thing I find odd about Smith’s original claims of gold plates being buried atop the hill is the fact that the stone box was completely ignored as a thing of naught. The box was left on the hill as if it was mere toilet paper in which Smith would simply flush as if Cumorah was a giant toilet. Goodbye stone box! We don’t need you! You aren’t important! You have no value! You’re just a worthless stone box and I don’t care about you one bit. So be gone! Off you go.

My point is that the very box in which the plates and other artifacts were protected and encased is just as ancient having been crafted and made by Moroni for the purposes of hiding and preserving the records. And we have no remains of that box. Joseph didn’t think it important enough to preserve it or recover any part of it. It was simply left on the hill to be flushed down an invisible hole on Cumorah’s toilet. But wait, there’s more. I’m not done criticizing Joseph Smith’s stupid story and the lie in which he told about how the plates were buried atop the hill.

Have you ever wondered why Joseph Smith did not drive a stake in the very ground where the plates were allegedly buried? Why is that? Why didn’t Joseph mark the sacred spot of ground by simply driving a rod or stake into the ground so that the spot would be forever preserved and hallowed by all those who come to believe the story of the Book of Mormon and honor the location in which it was buried? According to the story, Smith had multiple opportunities to drive a permanent stake in the ground, more especially on the occasion when he was finally allowed to actually take the plates. But apparently, the location and spot of ground meant little to Joseph. Why? Because it wasn’t real any more than the plates were real! There were no gold plates! There was no stone box. There were no ancient artifacts deposited on that hill just as there is no other ancient archeological artifacts or evidence on that hill today.

Smith came up with his story and imagined it all. Everything about the Book of Mormon including the box, plates, and the story itself is nothing more than Joseph Smith’s imagination. And with that said, Dan, I think I may know what you’re thinking:

“Shulem, you’ve not answered my question.”

And I’m not going to because you can answer it better than I. Think man!
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:19 am
I don't yet agree that the conclusion is inevitably in your favor because you haven't provided enough examples of how Delmarva matches the internal geography of the Book of Mormon. There are more mismatches than matches in my opinion. The only thing that lines up as far as I can tell is a narrow neck of land. It is still missing the narrow strip of wilderness, the east wilderness, the west wilderness, a river that has its source in an upland wilderness south of Zarahemla. And the distances between points are not at the right scale.

Really? Is that so?

Chapter and verse, please. Let us look at the text that you think supports this skewed and backward position provided by LDS apologists!

Rest assured, I have text which fully supports my position. I can show you HOW the apologists have been misreading text that reveals exactly what Smith was looking at on the map with regard to Sidon.

Of course, if you call my hand, I will be forced to play one of my high cards. Beware. I play for keeps! You will owe me.

This is big time, baby!

;)
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