God is evil, or likes it, or enjoys it whatever

[dastardly stem]

Yeah...its a good quote, Rivendale. I agree. What's odd is I've heard plenty of Christian believers suggest Jesus' timing in coming and saving mankind was perfect. And in a rather post hoc kind of way explain why that is. I'd agree it's just odd given a God who knows what's up.

[huckelberry]

But stem I do not even vaguely believe that God is a petty insecure tyrant in need of worship.

What is he then? I mean you've objected to that characterization but I don't know what God is to you that changes that. Does he save everyone in the end? If not, why not?

I am unsure I can get my head into the idea far enough to discuss it. I do not find that in scriptures even in the scriptures I feel could be distorted by the fear and anger of men.

I don't know what you mean by this. Who distorts scripture by the fear and anger of men? Or what's an example of that?

I see the old testament as a collection of thoughts by people trying to free their community of destructive type corruptions. This is a concern of all sorts of societies. I think there are elements in the Old Testament which are extreme, bad laws. I referred to that as distortions. I would think of elements of Deuteronomist school, strategies behind Josiah reform which are extreme. The violence in the desert journey and the fantasy of Joshua invasion I suspect are stories formed from the same program.

It is true that I do not see all pieces of scripture as equally true or accurate. I can see the concerns behind the extreme parts without agreeing with the extreme rule or political strategy used. I think there are other portions of scripture that have different views or approaches to the basic concerns.

So I believe in thinking about a historical development in scriptures. Jesus presents a review and reformation of old ideas. I believe we must continue to use our judgement and thought.

[huckelberry]

Stem, you write ," why else any of this" I am lost as to what this you may have in mind. I find myself thinking of this beautiful world and the fascinating wonderful collection of people animals plants that we live with. I find myself thinking of the planets and the brilliance of the sun and the galaxy of suns.

Are you seriously able to think all this is to collect some people to just and simply worship him forever? What in the world is this worship anyway? Singing hymns? Immensity reduced to triviality.

Its a good question that few tend to answer. It sounds to me like worshipping God simply means believe that he's there, greater than everything else, and we ought to think of him in awe or something. I recall as a believer when fellow believers said we had to worship God I was perplexed what we meant a little as you suggest. When we sit and sing hymns of him or think of him as we partake of communion or sacrament...Sure...I guess. Praise his name? Seems to work. Pray to him? yep. Hold a place inside us revering him? I think so. I guess all of that and perhaps more, since believers tend to do more things for him or in his name (and yet we know "many" of those believers will be coldly told He never knew them...never ever...never paid attention to them or noticed them. Or something.)

Stem , I found myself thinking about how you start expanding the idea of worship. If worship expands to include love of neighbors and other folks, courage to make good things out life, making the world a better place, an openness to the good and beauty to be found in life then I could agree that that God create humanity to worship him.

It also would be no surprise that this God who has such intentions is not blandly in love with everybody but in fact takes a hostile view towards people who take life as an opportunity to take advantage of others,or find it an occasion to harm.

[huckelberry]

One of the reasons that it is unworkable to claim scripture is some absolute finale statement is that it can be and is interpreted in different ways by people with different views. It is not possible to erase the thinking and experience of people who try to use the scriptures. That is why it appears to be futile to discuss that passage where some are told "I never knew you". I find you are quite capable of holding on to your interpretation with indifference to my quite different interpretation.

As I recall your interpretation of the Matt 7 verse doesn't suggest much different then I read it other than the many believers who get rejected get rejected because they are hypocrites or something. Sadly, we're all hypocrites at some point in our lives. If so, then how do we escape the notion that God ignores us all? I thought, in context, this was about people who metaphorically built their houses on sand--the foolish who didn't set a good foundation for their beliefs (whatever that might mean).

Stem, It seems a little odd to me that you view the foundation of sand to refer to foundations for belief, which you then note is utterly vague. The sermon in question is a long discussion of how people should act with no mention of beliefs.(or performing worship stuff) Why would there suddenly be a sharp turn into correct belief with no explanation?

You probably have reasons for your perception here. I would imagine It likely has to do with some theology(peoples thinking ) about the role of correct beliefs.

[dastardly stem]

I see the old testament as a collection of thoughts by people trying to free their community of destructive type corruptions. This is a concern of all sorts of societies. I think there are elements in the Old Testament which are extreme, bad laws. I referred to that as distortions. I would think of elements of Deuteronomist school, strategies behind Josiah reform which are extreme. The violence in the desert journey and the fantasy of Joshua invasion I suspect are stories formed from the same program.

It is true that I do not see all pieces of scripture as equally true or accurate. I can see the concerns behind the extreme parts without agreeing with the extreme rule or political strategy used. I think there are other portions of scripture that have different views or approaches to the basic concerns.

So I believe in thinking about a historical development in scriptures. Jesus presents a review and reformation of old ideas. I believe we must continue to use our judgement and thought.

It does appear many believers disregard much of scripture as it describes God and then decides God is something other than that. That's a good thing, for sure. Too many bad things are applied to God. Thanks for that.

Stem , I found myself thinking about how you start expanding the idea of worship. If worship expands to include love of neighbors and other folks, courage to make good things out life, making the world a better place, an openness to the good and beauty to be found in life then I could agree that that God create humanity to worship him.

It also would be no surprise that this God who has such intentions is not blandly in love with everybody but in fact takes a hostile view towards people who take life as an opportunity to take advantage of others,or find it an occasion to harm.

Good. SOunds like we're more in agreement then it initially seemed.

Stem, It seems a little odd to me that you view the foundation of sand to refer to foundations for belief, which you then note is utterly vague. The sermon in question is a long discussion of how people should act with no mention of beliefs.(or performing worship stuff) Why would there suddenly be a sharp turn into correct belief with no explanation?

You probably have reasons for your perception here. I would imagine It likely has to do with some theology(peoples thinking ) about the role of correct beliefs.

I don't really account much for what the old scriptures say and mean. Alls I can do is go with what was said (apparently):

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Maybe the "therefore" throws me off from what was really intended here? I don't know. It appears to me God doesn't like people who metaphorically, when it comes to belief, builds their house on sand, and intends to tell them he doesn't like them, or never knew them. The problem is everyone, if they believe, builds their belief on sand. There's no solid foundation to run with, it seems to me.

[MG 2.0]

The problem is everyone, if they believe, builds their belief on sand. There's no solid foundation to run with, it seems to me.

Belief is a choice. But there is a difference between believing in a flying spaghetti monster and believing in a creator God. For one thing, I can’t picture the fsm creating his children in the likeness of a noodle.

There isn’t ANY evidence of that.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

The problem is everyone, if they believe, builds their belief on sand. There's no solid foundation to run with, it seems to me.

Belief is a choice. But there is a difference between believing in a flying spaghetti monster and believing in a creator God. For one thing, I can’t picture the fsm creating his children in the likeness of a noodle.

There isn’t ANY evidence of that.

Regards,
MG

Belief is not a choice. Go up to a 10 story building and believe it is two inches from the ground. And step off. Believe you can beat cancer by faith. Your propaganda is troll behavior. Admit either being a troll or being a poe.....I would accept both.

[MG 2.0]

Belief is a choice. But there is a difference between believing in a flying spaghetti monster and believing in a creator God. For one thing, I can’t picture the fsm creating his children in the likeness of a noodle.

There isn’t ANY evidence of that.

Regards,
MG

Belief is not a choice. Go up to a 10 story building and believe it is two inches from the ground. And step off. Believe you can beat cancer by faith. Your propaganda is troll behavior. Admit either being a troll or being a poe.....I would accept both.

And who are YOU?

Belief in God is a choice.

What propaganda are YOU propagating?

Do you have a choice in what propaganda you propagandize?

Again, who ARE you? Your words have little or no meaning to me. What does that say about you?

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Belief is not a choice. Go up to a 10 story building and believe it is two inches from the ground. And step off. Believe you can beat cancer by faith. Your propaganda is troll behavior. Admit either being a troll or being a poe.....I would accept both.

And who are YOU?

Belief in God is a choice.

What propaganda are YOU propagating?

Do you have a choice in what propaganda you propagandize?

Again, who ARE you? Your words have little or no meaning to me. What does that say about you?

Regards,
MG

You have zero access to choices inside your brain. You have preferences but no choice action. That moment when you decide on something is completely hidden from you. You retro fit that choice to fit that preference.

[dastardly stem]

The problem is everyone, if they believe, builds their belief on sand. There's no solid foundation to run with, it seems to me.

Belief is a choice. But there is a difference between believing in a flying spaghetti monster and believing in a creator God. For one thing, I can’t picture the fsm creating his children in the likeness of a noodle.

There isn’t ANY evidence of that.

Regards,
MG

Yes, the only difference is you can’t imagine the fsm. Other than that they both remain unfounded.