DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

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IHAQ
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by IHAQ »

Peterson has gone "all-in" on the Witnesses and is spending huge amounts of other peoples money to promote what he perceives to be the "best evidence" for belief in the Book of Mormon. Here is a summary of that best evidence:
All three witnesses eventually broke with Smith and were excommunicated from the church.[1] In 1838, Joseph Smith called Cowdery, Harris, and Whitmer "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them."[2] Oliver Cowdery temporarily became a member of the Methodist Church, while Martin Harris adopted some Shaker beliefs. After the death of Joseph Smith, Harris and Cowdery sought rebaptism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[3][4] and Whitmer founded the Church of Christ (Whitmerite).[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses
The Eight Witnesses were the second of the two groups of "special witnesses" to the Book of Mormon's golden plates. They were all members of the Whitmer or Smith families: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Harrison Smith. Joseph Smith Sr. was Joseph's father, and Hyrum and Samuel H. Smith were his brothers. Christian, Jacob, Peter Jr. and John were David Whitmer's brothers, and Hiram Page was his brother-in-law.[6]
Christian Whitmer died in 1835 and his brother Peter Whitmer, Jr. died the following year. In 1838, the surviving Whitmers became estranged from Joseph Smith during a leadership struggle in Far West, Missouri, and all three were excommunicated with other dissenters,[7] never to rejoin The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I'd expect people who had seen such extraordinary evidence of the Church, such as the actual Gold Plates, to have been a little less flakey in their membership.
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Physics Guy »

Another recent thread raises the idea of sneaky equivocation in Mormon statements about polygamy. I see some potential equivocation in the collectively signed witness statements.
8 Witnesses wrote:Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon ... we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken.
A quick reading of this famous statement probably seems to imply that the witnesses handled the golden plates. If I read closely, however, I notice that they saw plates but handled "leaves"—and only the "leaves" that had been translated up to that point.

If the witnesses really had handled the individual plates, then it would be a bit odd for them to switch to calling them "leaves" in mid-statement. If they were leaf-like, why call them plates? If they were plate-like, why call them leaves? I also find it hard to imagine how, if they were handling the individual golden plates, they could be restricted to handling only those which Smith had translated. For that matter I find it hard to see why anyone would have wanted to restrict the plate-handling in that way. Finally, it would also be odd for the witnesses to mention only seeing and hefting, in their emphatic conclusion, if they had in fact handled the plates individually.

So I can't help imagining an alternative reading: perhaps the "leaves [that] the said Smith has translated" were simply the paper pages of Smith's English translation, and not the golden originals.

To be sure, there doesn't seem to be any great point in solemnly attesting to having handled a pile of modern paper with handwriting that everyone admitted had been produced only recently, by Smith and collaborators. There is a little bit of point to affirming that, though. If I showed you something that I was telling you was an ancient artifact, and at the same time I showed you some plaster casts that I said I had made of it, then when I later showed only the plaster casts and claimed that the artifact had been lost, you would be able to confirm that they were the same casts that I had showed you before, when I had also shown the artifact. So if you attested that I had once shown you both artifact and plaster casts at the same time, you'd be helping establish the association between the lost artifact and the still-extant casts.

If the eight witnesses were clearly remembering the event, and it had included passing around the paper leaves of Smith's supposed translation, then they might have been willing to sign the statement as it is written, with the idea that they were affirming an association between Smith's translation and the gold plates—or at any rate with the understanding that they were attesting to nothing more than what had indeed happened, handling paper leaves of the translation. With my reading, the eight witnesses might only actually have seen the plates from a distance, and hefted them inside a box, yet have been willing to affirm a statement that mentions handling leaves.

To people who weren't there, though, the same statement would suggest instead that the witnesses had really handled the individual plates.

If the witnesses had in fact handled individual plates, then their statement might still have mentioned "leaves" at that crucial point just through clumsiness in drafting the document. If saying "leaves" instead of "plates" was just a clumsy mistake in phrasing, it was an unfortunate slip, because it weakened the statement considerably. However "leaves" happened, the fact that it's there does seem to make the statement weaker than it seems at first reading.
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Marcus »

Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:40 am
Marcus wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:11 am


There was a thread here , but in the previous rendition i think
I found these. Maybe bump one if it’s relevant.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=103791&hilit=emily+partridge
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=103554&hilit=emily+partridge
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=103048&hilit=emily+partridge
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102275&hilit=emily+partridge
thanks, dr moore, but i think the thread i remember would have happened shortly after runtu's blog piece, which was 2015 i think.
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Marcus »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:11 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:07 am


Was that thread on this board?
There was a thread here , but in the previous rendition i think
i bumped a short one that has some discussion:
viewtopic.php?p=2376757#p2376757
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:15 pm
The witnesses of the Book of Mormon cannot be lightly dismissed. Not, at least, by anybody who cares about intellectual integrity.
The Book of Mormon is absolutely meaningless to most of humanity. Until or if it ever becomes something more interesting than a spiritual book tied to a particular religion, there is no need at all to even consider the witnesses. Claiming God did something sounds interesting, but what if that something means next to nothing to most people?
I am amused by the frequency in which detractors like to play the ‘numbers game’.

The fact is, that the Book of Mormon plays an important part in the spiritual conversion of many Latter Day Saints as they gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the church.

That’s what matters. Not the numbers of those that brush it off as being uninteresting, and as a result not worth their time and effort to pay REAL and sustained attention to.

Nowadays the words of President Benson come ringing back to the ears of those who spend time reading, pondering, and praying about the words and teachings in that holy book which testifies of Christ and His mission/atonement for all of mankind.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Those that treat lightly the Book of Mormon and the witnesses of the records from which it came are under the condemnation of God.

Regards,
MG
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by PseudoPaul »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:36 am
PseudoPaul wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:25 pm
The body of Lincoln was available for examination by disinterested parties. Can the same be said for the plates?

Also, Joseph Smith got people to sign an affidavit falsely claiming that Joseph Smith was not involved in polygamy. That's a huge red flag, on top of the red flags of the plates witnesses signing something they didn't write, having an interest in the outcome of the Book of Mormon, being closely related to the parties involved, and so forth.
Indeed. The fact that the witnesses did not write their own statements should be a huge red flag. My recollection was that some of them hesitated to sign because they felt the statement did not really reflect their individual experiences. And let’s face it, if you signed it, and the church later became the only significant thing you had any role in, you would have very good reasons to stick by the testimony, flawed as it was.

The Book of Mormon witnesses are poorly understood and misused.
There's a reason why it's simply not convincing to outsiders - anymore than Mormons are convinced about eyewitness testimony from Catholics about special appearances of the Virgin Mary to them.
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:21 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:15 pm


The Book of Mormon is absolutely meaningless to most of humanity. Until or if it ever becomes something more interesting than a spiritual book tied to a particular religion, there is no need at all to even consider the witnesses. Claiming God did something sounds interesting, but what if that something means next to nothing to most people?
I am amused by the frequency in which detractors like to play the ‘numbers game’.

The fact is, that the Book of Mormon plays an important part in the spiritual conversion of many Latter Day Saints as they gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the church.

That’s what matters. Not the numbers of those that brush it off as being uninteresting, and as a result not worth their time and effort to pay REAL and sustained attention to.

Nowadays the words of President Benson come ringing back to the ears of those who spend time reading, pondering, and praying about the words and teachings in that holy book which testifies of Christ and His mission/atonement for all of mankind.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Those that treat lightly the Book of Mormon and the witnesses of the records from which it came are under the condemnation of God.

Regards,
MG
Thanks for passing on the threat. I think I'm now converted again .... because an unseen something isn't happy .... according to Benson, a man probably in the early stages of Alzheimer's when he spoke those words.

Wait, this just in. God just told me that you, MG, are under double secret condemnation for acting like you know what you are talking about, when in reality, you are just guessing, like everyone does, about what lies beyond the grave or what religion one needs to follow.

Why don't you come down off of the mountain and stop scoffing at those who don't believe the way you do? You have a witness in Martin Harris who says he saw Jesus as a deer and who believed in just about anything put in front of him, who didn't care if the Book of Mormon were true or not because he thought he could make a hefty return on his investment.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:45 pm

Why don't you come down off of the mountain and stop scoffing at those who don't believe the way you do?
I’m just putting it out there. You can, as you have, simply scoff at what is being said by President Benson.

That is your prerogative. You have your agency to disbelieve.

Regards,
MG
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:21 pm


I am amused by the frequency in which detractors like to play the ‘numbers game’.
Interesting take from a member of an organization that has not only played the numbers game with respect to its membership numbers, but also played games with the numbers. 🙄
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Re: DCP equates the Witnesses of the plates to witnesses of the Lincoln assassination

Post by Doctor Steuss »

I just hope we can all come together, and acknowledge that in the 1940's, a fun-loving Scotsman, dead for decades, showed up regularly for jovial visits at seances.

There were witnesses. Witnesses that testified in court, no less. WITNESSESSESESSSES, I says. Thank you Ms. Duncan for having so many witnesses.

1944 Time Magazine article.
Albert, surnamed Stuart, a fun-loving Scotsman dead since 1909, was identified by other Duncanites as a disembodied soul who appeared frequently and clowned at the medium's sessions. These witnesses said that they had seen, shaken hands with, sometimes kissed: 1) Albert, 2) Mary, Queen of Scots, 3) a lipsticked, perfumed girl spirit.
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