Mormonism Live 104 was excellent

[Dr. Shades]

Will someone please summarize the key points of this episode for us?

[dastardly stem]

I've gathered about 30 minutes of it--not all sequentially...but for what it's worth:

Nemo is a youtuber, as far I as can gather, and an active member of the Church. In listening to RFM and Mormonism live and Mormon Stories, apparently, he has found lies from Church leaders. On the grounds the leaders have lied, he has refused to sustain them as leaders. He was told to meet with his local leaders, bishop and SP, to log his complaints and they'll send them on to the leadership for consideration. He followed the course and was relentless in getting a response. Some aid, of sorts, responded for President Oaks, who it was said was assigned to look into the matter (yes, he was assigned to investigate himself lol). He got some canned sounding messages back which if scrutinized demonstrate more deception in the way of promising follow up and investigation that never happened. I skimmed to about half way into it, so at that point, I lost interest and made my last comment here.

I'm sure someone can come along and give us the rest of it. These damn shows are long, so much easier to read something.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

For a pretty concise summary start at 1:15:25 and watch Nemo’s reading of his final email to Oaks until 1:25:30. RFM’s follow-up comment about lawyers not responding to an allegation is spot on, too.

- Doc

[Rivendale]

One of the most compelling parts was when Nemo's stake president was ordered to destroy Oak's letter.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

One of the most compelling parts was when Nemo's stake president was ordered to destroy Oak's letter.

I don’t believe he destroyed that letter. Not for a hot second. That’s an heirloom tucked away in his office now.

- Doc

[Rivendale]

One of the most compelling parts was when Nemo's stake president was ordered to destroy Oak's letter.

I don’t believe he destroyed that letter. Not for a hot second. That’s an heirloom tucked away in his office now.

- Doc

You are probably right. But the fact he was told to destroy it speaks volumes regarding the quote, " We as Apostles of the church has never hid information from anyone ". It also links back to Joseph's Smith's orders to destroy his letters he sent to prospective wives. Paranoid bunch.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I don’t believe he destroyed that letter. Not for a hot second. That’s an heirloom tucked away in his office now.

- Doc

You are probably right. But the fact he was told to destroy it speaks volumes regarding the quote, " We as Apostles of the church has never hid information from anyone ". It also links back to Joseph's Smith's orders to destroy his letters he sent to prospective wives. Paranoid bunch.

So spot on. The Mormon church has a dishonesty problem that’s deeply ingrained to the point of pathos.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Hey, stem!

On your point about lying, I think Nemo is working out the ramifications of holding the church to its own rhetoric and rules. In this scenario, it does not matter what in fact happens. It matters that the policies and rhetoric present things in a certain way. Either those representations are accurate or they are not, but Nemo is not going to let this slide as mere rhetoric. He thinks the leaders should live up to their avowed principles and policies. That is what makes his work so brilliant.

Just my two cents in response to the first couple of lines of your post.

[dastardly stem]

Hey, stem!

On your point about lying, I think Nemo is working out the ramifications of holding the church to its own rhetoric and rules. In this scenario, it does not matter what in fact happens. It matters that the policies and rhetoric present things in a certain way. Either those representations are accurate or they are not, but Nemo is not going to let this slide as mere rhetoric. He thinks the leaders should live up to their avowed principles and policies. That is what makes his work so brilliant.

Just my two cents in response to the first couple of lines of your post.

Thanks Kish. I agree. I see this for sure. I'm not at all opposed to whatever this all is for Nemo. I get, a bit, what it's like to be a believer of sorts and seeing all these problems and wanting to wish the negative away. Looking forward to a day when there's a Mormon Church without all it's problems. I just don't see how it'd be possible, given everything we know about how things work. Religion can't possibly be any more moral or honest than other groups and organizations. Also I get his thought that God wouldn't lie. But, if he played it out, he'd see that God is all about lying, according to all the holy books we have on record. And without the holy books, God is a sneaky little devil, or sorts, hoping some of us fail, and perhaps working on misleading many of us so he can unleash upon many a violent end. All things considered, leaders of a Church have no choice but to lie a bit. Holding them accountable for it, seems silly, kind of like holding a leader of Walmart accountable for any misinformation he/she puts out to protect that organization. Mostly we just shrug off lies from organizations as ok because they are protecting. For religions we seem to wish to pull out our pitchforks and knives, playing on God's violent and unforgiving nature.

[Doctor Steuss]

A few of those emails were a master class on the British ability to politely kick someone in the reproductive bits.