Radio Free Mormon & Backyard Professor Take Elder David A. Bednar to the Limit

[sock puppet]

So why are those who have tossed the seed away from the test, since obviously it is not good, always getting into trouble and pressured to endure to the end and stay on the Covenant Path, an obviously flawed idea, since the seed is bad, with the church and apologists?

Good question. You can find part of the answer in vs 38 and 39 of Alma 32.

As intimated earlier, critics often fail to realize that there are actually two things being tested: beliefs and believers. Both are the seeds and plants in question. It is fascinating how, when believers eventually flunk the test of spiritual faith, and drop out, it is not uncommon for them to mistakenly fault the spiritual beliefs. In fact, it is not uncommon for those who have flunked the tests and dropped out, to give lectures on matters of spiritual faith to those who continue to pass and who have excelled in spiritual faith and have even reached the top of the class (like Bednar). It truly is a marvel.

It is also not uncommon for those who continue to pass the test of spiritual faith, and who have tasted the delicious fruit thereof, to want to encourage those who have flunked and dropped out, in hopes that they will try again for their own benefit, These faithful believers do so realizing that the dropouts may have already joined the path of the Great and Spacious Building, and aren't likely to be enticed by the spiritual fruit being offered. But, the worth of the souls of the dropouts is great, and warrants the try.

Thanks, Wade Englund

Wade, in your view, did any dropouts previously pass the test of spiritual faith and taste the delicious fruit thereof?

[Marcus]

The Alma test you referred to earlier has implicit in it the requirement that if the expected answer is not received, one should try again until one receives the correct answer, which, by definition, is the “intended” response…

Continuing to search until your starting assumptions are vindicated, at least in your mind, is the definition of confirmation bias.

I just read through the passage 3 times and found no such implication. Could you point me to the verse or verses in which you think it is implied?

No need. Here you go, I’ll let you explain it to yourself:

…It is fascinating how, when believers eventually flunk the test of spiritual faith, and drop out, it is not uncommon for them to mistakenly fault the spiritual beliefs…

It is also not uncommon for those who continue to pass the test of spiritual faith, and who have tasted the delicious fruit thereof, to want to encourage those who have flunked and dropped out, in hopes that they will try again for their own benefit, These faithful believers do so realizing that the dropouts may have already joined the path of the Great and Spacious Building, and aren't likely to be enticed by the spiritual fruit being offered.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I just read through the passage 3 times and found no such implication. Could you point me to the verse or verses in which you think it is implied?

No need. Here you go, I’ll let you explain it to yourself:

…It is fascinating how, when believers eventually flunk the test of spiritual faith, and drop out, it is not uncommon for them to mistakenly fault the spiritual beliefs…

It is also not uncommon for those who continue to pass the test of spiritual faith, and who have tasted the delicious fruit thereof, to want to encourage those who have flunked and dropped out, in hopes that they will try again for their own benefit, These faithful believers do so realizing that the dropouts may have already joined the path of the Great and Spacious Building, and aren't likely to be enticed by the spiritual fruit being offered.

I’m sorry, Marcus, but until you see five lights I’m afraid you flunked the TEST, and you’ll just have to understand you don’t get to taste tHe dELicIoUs fRuItS that seeing five lights bring. You’re a QUITTER, and a FLUNKER, and an OCCUPANT of the GREAT and SPACIOUS BUILDING !

Ugh. Tsk tsk. Tut tut. No no no, that won’t do.

Here, read Alma again. And again. And again. And again until you get it. And if that doesn’t work, read the Book of Abraham until it clicks. Or the Old Testament! And the New One, too! And the latest plagiarized talk by Elder Bednar! Do it. DO IT!

Now. Tell me. How many lights do you see?



- Doc

[Philo Sofee]

The one true cheese on earth is gouda. Pray, search your feelings Luke. You know it to be true.

Nooooooooooooooo! Please let it be Pepper Jack! Please, I fast and pray for this blessing! PLEASE!!!!! P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!!!!

[Marcus]

Choosers of cheese often fail to realize that there are actually two things being tested: the cheese and the choosers. It is fascinating how, when choosers eventually flunk the test of choosing the best cheese and drop out, it is not uncommon for them to mistakenly fault the cheese.

In fact, it is not uncommon for those who have flunked the choosing and stopped cheesing to give lectures on matters of cheese choosing to those who continue to choose and who have excelled in cheese choosing and have even reached the top choice of the cheese choosing cheesers. I mean choosers. like Bednar. It truly is a choice cheese chosen.

It is also not uncommon for those who continue to pass the test of cheese choosing, and who have tasted the delicious cheeses thereof, to want to encourage those who have flunked the choosing and dropped out of choice cheesing, in hopes that they will choose again for their own cheeseness.

These faithful cheese-choosers do choose exceedingly cheesingly, but realizing that the cheese-nonchoosing-choiceless may have already joined the path of the Great and Spacious Velveeta, and aren't likely to be enticed except by the inferior cheese-food-products being offered.

But, the worth of the souls of the cheeseless is great, and warrants the cheese choice chivvying.

Thanks, The Cheesiest of All Correct Cheese Choosers.

It’s grana padano, by the way, if anyone is still wondering.

[wenglund]

The question isn't can you get other people to fall into the trap er...I mean other people to agree with you about your spiritual belief. In the case of people who agree their spiritual growth has happened, we still are unable to determine if there is anything to the claim. Each and every of the millions, even if there were billions this would be true, could simply be mistaken. What meaningful progress can be claimed by these millions that other people can't also claim?

Excellent question. The answer is: growth unto celestialization as opposed to growth unto terrestrialization or telestialization.

If others can claim the same, then how do we ever really demonstrate this said progress?

They don't claim the same. At best they may claim a terrestrial progress, though they wouldn't call it or know it by that name. Instead, they may refer to it as "being saved" or "nirvana" or something of the sort. Many of them don't propose a test like Alma 32. Instead, if they propose any tests at all, it is reliant on "the arm of flesh" rather than upon God--such as exegesis, biblical or systematic theology, etc.

Each type of progression is somewhat demonstrable externally to others by way of "fruits," but mostly it is demonstrated internally to oneself.

In a very rough sense, it is like a selection of health and wellness regimens. Some of the regimens claim to produce such and such results, while others claim to produce otherwise. They each can be tested to see if participants progress or not towards the respective claimed results. The progression can be somewhat demonstrated to others through external fruits (weigh loss, fitness, healthy complexion, etc.), but mostly it is demonstrated internally to oneself.

The problem here is you're not testing anything. You would simply be confirming what you really want or think. Any claimed progress is as make believe as the tooth fairy since it's only claimed and not demonstrated.

As indicated above, your premise is incorrect, therefore your conclusion doesn't logically follow.

This really makes little sense at all. If you have a test or results then share them. This is talking around the requested information. It sounds to me you are making up a realm (A spirit realm) and pretending people who really think there is a spirit realm and really think in the context of a spirit realm that Mormonism is true are really progressing in that realm. What real world tests would one use to actually demonstrate this realm? What real world tests would one use to actually demonstrate progress in that realm? My perspective is this is all make believe (well because I've ran the gamut you describe for years before). There is no such realm, at least nothing demonstrable. And there is no scale that any of us can observe to measure progress. Its as if you are measuring the progress of blocks of cheese jumping in another dimension while in this world. "that cheddar jumps higher than that mozzarella so it has progressed more. If you have eyes to see after reading this book about cheeses and the maker of that other realm inspires you to care of this stuff, you too would know which cheese has progressed. This only works for those who have eyes to see. Everyone else is not worthy for our great maker to bother himself with. Eternally they shall regret their disbelief."

This is exactly Bednar's point. The critics ask to "see" (i.e. observe or experience through the 5 physical senses) things that the physical senses aren't capable of observing or experiencing in their fallen state. In a rough sense, it would be like a blind man requesting to observe/experience colors through his other 4 senses than sight, when the other 4 sense aren't capable of observing/experiencing colors. Such requests are unreasonable.

Yet, when the critics don't observe/experience these things that aren't observable/experienced through the 5 physical senses, they assume that those things don't exist--not unlike were the blind man to assume that colors don't exist because he couldn't observe/experience them through the other 4 senses. This is unreasonable.

It is made all the more unreasonable when the critics have been offered a viable means for observing/experiencing spiritual things, and they decline or flunk and drop out of the process. The spiritually blind critics have rejected the means for spiritual sight. Their spiritual blindness can't be healed because of their lack of faith in spiritual things.

Thanks, Wade Englund

[Marcus]

No need. Here you go, I’ll let you explain it to yourself:

I’m sorry, Marcus, but until you see five lights I’m afraid you flunked the TEST, and you’ll just have to understand you don’t get to taste tHe dELicIoUs fRuItS that seeing five lights bring. You’re a QUITTER, and a FLUNKER, and an OCCUPANT of the GREAT and SPACIOUS BUILDING !

Ugh. Tsk tsk. Tut tut. No no no, that won’t do.

Here, read Alma again. And again. And again. And again until you get it. And if that doesn’t work, read the Book of Abraham until it clicks. Or the Old Testament! And the New One, too! And the latest plagiarized talk by Elder Bednar! Do it. DO IT!

Now. Tell me. How many lights do you see?



- Doc

You have captured the issue exactly.

[wenglund]

Wade, in your view, did any dropouts previously pass the test of spiritual faith and taste the delicious fruit thereof?

I am not in a position to say for certain, but your wonderful question is best answered in Lehi's dream as expounded by Nephi (see 1 Nephi 11: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng )

Thanks, Wade Englund

[wenglund]

And who is responsible for kind of soil the seed is placed in? I know I didn't pick the soil I landed in despite what Saturdays Warrior claims. The accumulation of genetic factors and the acre of soil I grew up around seems to indicate god wanted me to be atheist.

To the extent that we aren't responsible for the kind of soil we, or the seeds of faith, are planted in, or how we or the seeds are nurtured, this will be compensated for through the mercy of Christ's redemption. And, redemption is most definitely what God wants for one and all.

Thanks, Wade Englund-

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Wade, in your view, did any dropouts previously pass the test of spiritual faith and taste the delicious fruit thereof?

I am not in a position to say for certain, but your wonderful question is best answered in Lehi's dream as expounded by Nephi (see 1 Nephi 11: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng )

Thanks, Wade Englund

Read it! READ IT!!! Again and again and again until you can tell me how many lights are there!!



Yes, yes, yes. I see we have much more work to do here.



Have you tried reading 3rd Nephi, Captain? Here, let me share a favorite passage of mine …

- Doc