Daniel McClellan Debunks The Mormon View Of Grace

[Shulem]

I will say this in favor of Dan’s view: there is a lot of strange English usage in the Book of Mormon. So, why not read “after all” in a counterintuitive way?

Dear Kish,

You will agree that the word "despite" has a negative connotation that Joseph Smith was not apt to use in his figure of speech, especially in that particular context. In fact, nowhere is that word found in the entire Book of Mormon, so why should Dan think to put it there? Dan screwed up. The word had a strong negative connotation in Smith's time, so putting it in that context involving works coupled by grace is really inappropriate, if you ask me.

DESPITE, noun

1. Extreme malice; violent hatred; malignity; malice irritated or enraged; active malignity; angry hatred.

With all thy despite against the land of Israel. Ezekiel 25:6.

2. Defiance with contempt, or contempt of opposition.

He will rise to fame in despite of his enemies.

3. An act of malice or contempt; as a despite to the Most High

DESPITE, verb transitive To vex; to offend; to tease.

Dan's attempt to substitute with the word "despite" would have been more successful had he employed a word that Joseph Smith used dozens of times in the Book of Mormon in a variety circumstances:

NOTWITHSTAND'ING

As I said above, Dan really screwed up. This is a black mark for him.

[Failed Prophecy]

Does this guy think the church leadership cares what the Book of Mormon actually says? All scripture in the LDS church is proof texted to say whatever leadership wants to say in my experience.

So even if he is correct, who cares?

[Dr Exiled]

Does this guy think the church leadership cares what the Book of Mormon actually says? All scripture in the LDS church is proof texted to say whatever leadership wants to say in my experience.

So even if he is correct, who cares?

It means whatever is expedient for it to mean in the moment. That's the beauty of being the chief interpreters of scripture and claiming ongoing revelation. Now and probably always was, I mean who am I kidding, to be rich is good as long as you use your wealth to support whatever the brethren want at a given moment and generously give to the almighty Fund.

[huckelberry]

I will say this in favor of Dan’s view: there is a lot of strange English usage in the Book of Mormon. So, why not read “after all” in a counterintuitive way?

In any case, I really don’t feel it is necessary to have a Pauline view of grace. I don’t even like Paul. He’s a vainglorious ass and a huckster.

Kishkumen, Dan stated that he had done a study of common English usage at that time and that he was interpreting it in accordance with common usage. That would include discussion at that time about grace. The Book of Mormon does not wander far from common Protestant thinking of the time. It makes some selections between competing points of view. Nobody thought grace worked only after you do all the necessary rituals. Nephi says nothing of that sort. I not sure how reactions to Paul would change this.

I think Dans comments are simple and correct.

[Shulem]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmXSBqNCYJ8

Okay, so I went outside of my comfort zone and posted something in the comments.

Joseph Smith never would have used the word "despite" in that context wherein works of the law of Moses are coupled with the future grace of the last sacrifice of Christ. I'm afraid McClellan has really screwed this up. I suppose he could have substituted or applied the word "notwithstanding" but even that has problems for the context of the message within the text. Joseph Smith's poor construction within that verse should have been rendered as thus: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do in keeping the law of Moses." (Shulem, @ Discuss Mormonism)

[huckelberry]

I will say this in favor of Dan’s view: there is a lot of strange English usage in the Book of Mormon. So, why not read “after all” in a counterintuitive way?

Dear Kish,

You will agree that the word "despite" has a negative connotation that Joseph Smith was not apt to use in his figure of speech, especially in that particular context. In fact, nowhere is that word found in the entire Book of Mormon, so why should Dan think to put it there? Dan screwed up. The word had a strong negative connotation in Smith's time, so putting it in that context involving works coupled by grace is really inappropriate, if you ask me.

DESPITE, noun

1. Extreme malice; violent hatred; malignity; malice irritated or enraged; active malignity; angry hatred.

With all thy despite against the land of Israel. Ezekiel 25:6.

2. Defiance with contempt, or contempt of opposition.

He will rise to fame in despite of his enemies.

3. An act of malice or contempt; as a despite to the Most High

DESPITE, verb transitive To vex; to offend; to tease.

Dan's attempt to substitute with the word "despite" would have been more successful had he employed a word that Joseph Smith used dozens of times in the Book of Mormon in a variety circumstances:

NOTWITHSTAND'ING

As I said above, Dan really screwed up. This is a black mark for him.

Shulem, I think it is possible that you misunderstood Dans meaning. I think he meant that the word despite would fit current English usage better than the phrase actually in the Book of Mormon. However the phrase used was commonly used back then in the way he points out. He is trying to clarify the meaning by observing how the words were used in English at the time.

By the way you left out pieces of your 2 Nephi quote.

[Shulem]

Shulem, I think it is possible that you misunderstood Dans meaning. I think he meant that the word despite would fit current English usage better than the phrase actually in the Book of Mormon. However the phrase used was commonly used back then in the way he points out. He is trying to clarify the meaning by observing how the words were used in English at the time.

By the way you left out pieces of your 2 Nephi quote.

Current English usage being applied to the usage in Smith's day are two different things. Whatever Dan "points out" that was used back then does not agree with Smith's usage. Smith never used the word "despite" in the Book of Mormon and neither should we! It certainly doesn't fit within the context of the phrase that melds law of Moses sacrificial works with the last sacrificial performance in Christ. Smith was trying to explain how the law of Moses and the sacrifice of Christ go together and work for the salvation of man at that time.

That is what I've tried to express in this thread.

[huckelberry]

Joseph Smith never would have used the word "despite" in that context wherein works of the law of Moses are coupled with the future grace of the last sacrifice of Christ. I'm afraid McClellan has really screwed this up. I suppose he could have substituted or applied the word "notwithstanding" but even that has problems for the context of the message within the text. Joseph Smith's poor construction within that verse should have been rendered as thus: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do in keeping the law of Moses." (Shulem, @ Discuss Mormonism)

Paul, I think your rewrite fits what has become common LDS understanding but it is an understanding developing after the introduction of the ordinances which are believed to be essential. Joseph Smith when producing the Book of Mormon would not have had that in mind. That development was in the future. Christian thinking that surrounded him and generally constitutes the religious understanding found in the Book of Mormon did not have such an understanding of ordinances or the law.

[Shulem]

Paul, I think your rewrite fits what has become common LDS understanding but it is an understanding developing after the introduction of the ordinances which are believed to be essential. Joseph Smith when producing the Book of Mormon would not have had that in mind. That development was in the future. Christian thinking that surrounded him and generally constitutes the religious understanding found in the Book of Mormon did not have such an understanding of ordinances or the law.

Not sure I follow you exactly but we can agree that the law of Moses was strictly observed in Book of Mormon religious practice because it says so. Animal sacrifice and the belief in a last sacrifice of Christ himself was par for the course; they embraced both. The first was the works of the law, rituals performed by their own hands and the latter was divine grace performed by God himself.

Smith was familiar with the law of Moses as explained in the Old Testament. Not much of it was written into the Book of Mormon story because the main focus was on Christ seeing the future prophecy was what counted and animal sacrifice would be fulfilled or discontinued being swallowed up in Christ.

Anyway, something like that.

[Kishkumen]

Kishkumen, Dan stated that he had done a study of common English usage at that time and that he was interpreting it in accordance with common usage. That would include discussion at that time about grace. The Book of Mormon does not wander far from common Protestant thinking of the time. It makes some selections between competing points of view. Nobody thought grace worked only after you do all the necessary rituals. Nephi says nothing of that sort. I not sure how reactions to Paul would change this.

I think Dans comments are simple and correct.

Thanks, huckelberry. I should watch before commenting. I was just being lazy.