Being Mormon

[honorentheos]

To avoid derailing a Mormon-related thread elsewhere, I thought it worthwhile to revisit an old idea that to be Mormon is more like being Jewish than it is to be some denomination of Protestantism. Mormonism is a culture which grew from and encompasses a mode of restorationist Christian religion, but the culture is what is Mormon. The LDS church is an institution whose characteristics have Mormon qualities to them along with a certain American corporateness as well. And within the domain of what is Mormon are countless matters that have little or nothing to do with the religion that is proselytized by The Church or Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have had Jewish friends who are atheists yet their son was Bar Mitzvahed and they occasionally attend temple. I have Mormon friends and family who have their kids blessed and baptized yet are possibly even more disbelieving in the LDS faith than I. It's been 16 years since I've sat in a ward house as a member of the ward and to be fair, I don't care about Mormonism anymore, really. It's boring and it seems trapped in it's own gravity. Yet I sense a commonality among those who were raised Mormon, who have Mormon culture in them, that brings me back to this board even though I'd rather discuss non-LDS topics with other cultural areligious Mormons than talk about one more way Joseph Smith was wrong about whatever. To quote Armand Maus, 'I am impatient with theological discourses and arguments, which can rarely, if ever, be tested or falsified, and must therefore remain speculative and of dubious significance from an eternal perspective. I am much more interested in the empirical evidence for the relationship between theology (or doctrine) and actual behavior (which can, of course, be reciprocally causative)."

So it's interesting to me to see discourse over what belongs in a forum about Mormon-related topics where the topic and participation can only be explained by sharing a place in Mormon culture even if the topics aren't about the religion. What is Mormonism if not a shared experience?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Interesting post. I wonder if secular Mormons will eventually be as common as secular Jews? In the last couple of years I have become acquainted with several individuals who would describe themselves as secular Mormons. They don't believe in any of the doctrine, but strongly identify with the culture.

[malkie]

About 40 years ago, when I was young (!) and naïve, I worked with a guy who described himself as Jewish (unhyphenated ), but said that he didn't believe in any god. Because I thought of Judaism as a religion, I didn't understand what he meant.

He explained that to him, and to many Jews in North America, to be Jewish is to morally and financially support the state of Israel.

Is there some kind of parallel in Mormonism? And, if so, is it widespread?

[honorentheos]

Interesting post. I wonder if secular Mormons will eventually be as common as secular Jews? In the last couple of years I have become acquainted with several individuals who would describe themselves as secular Mormons. They don't believe in any of the doctrine, but strongly identify with the culture.

I wonder, too. There's always been a spectrum of engagement among members in my experience. And the Church seems to prioritize orthopraxy over orthodoxy. I for one am much more likely to let drop in conversation that I was raised Mormon now than, say, ten years ago because it helps explain why I lived in Europe for two years, why I didn't drink alcohol until into my 30s and have never been drunk, why I find religion interesting in an emic sense without being religious...it's part of who I am but the religion itself couldn't be further from than it is today. I didn't invent the comparison between Mormons and Jews having culture that is bigger than the religion but can't recall where I picked it up from. But I agree with it. I'll look around more and see if I can find a source.

[honorentheos]

About 40 years ago, when I was young (!) and naïve, I worked with a guy who described himself as Jewish (unhyphenated ), but said that he didn't believe in any god. Because I thought of Judaism as a religion, I didn't understand what he meant.

He explained that to him, and to many Jews in North America, to be Jewish is to morally and financially support the state of Israel.

Is there some kind of parallel in Mormonism? And, if so, is it widespread?

Interesting. My friend/former coworker was favorable to Israel though I am unsure that his Jewish identity arose from it. I've heard others speak of the same, including the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt who as far as I know isn't particularly tied to Israel. Are you noting this is one facet of potential identity among others and just asking if there is a Mormon equivalent? Or suggesting that secular Judaism is political identity rather than cultural? I'm curious.

[malkie]

About 40 years ago, when I was young (!) and naïve, I worked with a guy who described himself as Jewish (unhyphenated ), but said that he didn't believe in any god. Because I thought of Judaism as a religion, I didn't understand what he meant.

He explained that to him, and to many Jews in North America, to be Jewish is to morally and financially support the state of Israel.

Is there some kind of parallel in Mormonism? And, if so, is it widespread?

Interesting. My friend/former coworker was favorable to Israel though I am unsure that his Jewish identity arose from it. I've heard others speak of the same, including the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt who as far as I know isn't particularly tied to Israel. Are you noting this is one facet of potential identity among others and just asking if there is a Mormon equivalent? Or suggesting that secular Judaism is political identity rather than cultural? I'm curious.

I asked the question simply because it popped into my head as a result of your OP's mention of your Jewish friends.

I'm not aware of a Mormon equivalent, but I suppose it's not entirely impossible.

Although I had no thought of political vs. cultural identities before you asked, I have to say that I'm not sure that these two identities are necessarily neatly separable. For instance, active believing Mormons appear to be largely right leaning, and in the US are much more likely to be Republicans than Democrats, but I get the impression that a fair number of ex-Mormons and disaffected Mormons lean somewhat to the left (I'm not sure if there is a causal relationship, and if so in which direction). However, both might equally claim to be culturally Mormon.

Am I making sense? Is this really answering your questions?

[sock puppet]

Mormonism is a culture which grew from and encompasses a mode of restorationist Christian religion, but the culture is what is Mormon. The LDS church is an institution whose characteristics have Mormon qualities to them along with a certain American corporateness as well.

It has for decades been tacking towards the corporateness more than the religious/cultural.

[Xenophon]

Really interesting thoughts from folks so thanks honor for kicking off the topic. Apologies as I've only recently begun turning this one over in my mind and my thoughts aren't totally solidified. However I can tell you for my SO and her family the cultural aspects are still something they are working through.

So it's interesting to me to see discourse over what belongs in a forum about Mormon-related topics where the topic and participation can only be explained by sharing a place in Mormon culture even if the topics aren't about the religion. What is Mormonism if not a shared experience?

I think there is a lot to the idea that the experience of being in the church was much more binding via the culture than a lot of the theology, although the lines can obviously get very murky. To throw another element in to the ring I'm amazed by how a lot of that experience can be highlighted by absence or missing elements from a more "normal" rearing. I think this is especially true when framing the concept for an outsider. I notice this most whenever my SO has to expand on why she didn't see that rated R (or often pg-13) movie that was all the rage for people in a similar age bracket, or explain how her tastes in coffee/tea/wine are still very much in their early days. Sure a lot of what influenced her upbringing are stake dances, pioneer days, girls camp, but so many of those have fairly close correlation to non-Mormon youth activity. The bits that set it apart are the peculiarities within those things, like not having an exposed bathing suit, a quad between the dancers, or the total lack of female leaders at the top of the Church's food chain. This is true not just when thinking about childhood, too. As malkie's story in another thread highlighted when mentioning missing a temple wedding. I know that I've had to do a lot of explaining about my own family not being present for our sealing.

in my opinion this only aggravates the issues with leaving. Not only does one have to come to grips with the reality of the theological implications but now that transition is also accompanied by the cultural shock of trying to fit back in with the rest of the world. It can feel like a very lonely time for sure.

All that said, I don't think the idea of being cultural Mormon perfectly parallels with being a cultural Jew. I'll admit my perspective is limited as I've never lived in the LDS belt but as an explainer: I have at least one culturally Jewish friend who's parents would likely be considered cultural Jews as well and his children see themselves in much the same way. They participate in some of the rites without really believing in the religious aspects of it. I can't imagine an Ex-Mormon behaving in a similar way. I'm not sure it is a mythos that can (or should) be passed down. I'm hard pressed to think of an Ex-Mormon that would want to baptize their 8 year-old anyway or attend a temple ceremony for old-time's sake.

[MG 2.0]

I'm hard pressed to think of an Ex-Mormon that would want to baptize their 8 year-old anyway or attend a temple ceremony for old-time's sake.

Makes sense.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Mormonism is a culture which grew from and encompasses a mode of restorationist Christian religion, but the culture is what is Mormon. The LDS church is an institution whose characteristics have Mormon qualities to them along with a certain American corporateness as well.

It has for decades been tacking towards the corporateness more than the religious/cultural.

I think it’s gone both directions in parallel. The “corporateness” ( is that a word?…no matter) has been necessary in order to administrate a world wide church.

And in turn the religious teachings and the culture of Mormonism has been able to thrive. I don’t think you can have one without the other in the modern world.

The church, as you know, is global. That presents a host of challenges that weren’t challenges back in the day.

The corporation is a necessary ‘evil’ in a sense. Not that the corporation is evil in the traditional sense. It’s simply that the evils existent in almost any monolithic power structure with large numbers of administrative staff and downstream adherents/clients is going to struggle with bureaucratic nonsense and liability.

It’s the nature of the beast. The challenge is to keep uniformity of mission and practice in order for the institution to survive. On that count I think the church has done a pretty dang good job over the years.

Think correlation. Even with its disadvantages/downsides.

Regards,
MG