The empty tomb and Mormonism’s aversion to cremation

[Moksha]

I guess growing up catholic I didn’t think he actually woke up, pushed the stone, and walked out. More emphasis was put on the verticality of the resurrection. He literally descended down into hell and then ascended into heaven, as in the Nicene Creed.

I guess Mormons believe he was just phase shifting between the spirit world and mortal world after his death?

Pretty much the same thing but Mormons are a bit more precise as to the method. They would add that he gets to travel all over the place as First Officer, but not as readily as the Holy Ghost due to that flesh and bone thing.

[Chap]

... it’s a common Christian teaching that God and Jesus are omnipresent.

It is indeed common Christian teaching that God is omnipresent, certainly. But God is Triune: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Talking about 'God and Jesus' is a bit like talking about 'animals and cats'.

Calvinists in particular seem to argue that God is identical to the Universe because of this property [omnipresence]. That the Universe is simply a manifestation of God’s will.

I don't think you will be able to find a Calvinist writer who asserts that God is identical to the universe. God's creation mirrors his glory, certainly - as your second sentence seems to assert. But that is not the same thing.

The unlimited power of God enabled him to easily crucify himself to appease himself to fulfill whatever law He created which made the requirement. It is very self serving.

I do agree that viewed from the outside as matters of cold logic, all attempts to solve the contradiction between a perfectly good, loving and omnipotent creator God and the clear existence of evil in the world - especially the undeserved suffering of the innocent - ultimately fail. When I was a believer, the way I dealt with this was by saying that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus showed that God was on our side and had willingly shared the worse that the world could do to a human being. So I felt it was reasonable to trust him, even though there were many things I was unable to understand. After all, how far can one little human being hope to comprehend the being and purposes of God?

Well, that's how I thought then.

[drumdude]

That dichotomy never made sense to me. God created the entire vast universe, but he also cares deeply about which underwear I have on.

I think at the end of the day I am as Hitchens said, “those who Blaise Pascal took into account when he wrote to the one who says, "I am so made that I cannot believe."”

[huckelberry]

That dichotomy never made sense to me. God created the entire vast universe, but he also cares deeply about which underwear I have on.

drumdude, a reminder of what you already know. It is most likely God is not at all worried about your underwear.

[drumdude]

That dichotomy never made sense to me. God created the entire vast universe, but he also cares deeply about which underwear I have on.

drumdude, a reminder of what you already know. It is most likely God is not at all worried about your underwear.

Unfortunately after seeing so many people believe sincerely that God does care about such trivial things, my faith in God (if it was ever there) is simply not recoverable. I believe if there really was a God, he would not allow such charlatans to mislead millions of people. He would do a much better job of revealing himself and not allow so many men to profit and harm others in his name.

Those kinds of things are what I would expect to happen in a universe where God either doesn’t exist or doesn’t care.

[msnobody]

drumdude, a reminder of what you already know. It is most likely God is not at all worried about your underwear.

Unfortunately after seeing so many people believe sincerely that God does care about such trivial things, my faith in God (if it was ever there) is simply not recoverable. I believe if there really was a God, he would not allow such charlatans to mislead millions of people. He would do a much better job of revealing himself and not allow so many men to profit and harm others in his name.

Those kinds of things are what I would expect to happen in a universe where God either doesn’t exist or doesn’t care.

Drumdude, could I send you a copy of The Unseen Realm or Supernatural by Michael Heiser? I think the content of his books help to clarify the why’s of some of the things you struggle with (some of the things we all struggle with). The Unseen Realm is more scholarly (or has lots of peer reviewed references), while Supernatural is an easier read. Basically, I think it would help to understand why evil is in the world, how God is dealing with it, and what God wants, and where we fit into all of it. Send me a PM with an address if you’d me to send you either or both.

[Dr. Shades]

I guess Mormons believe he was just phase shifting between the spirit world and mortal world after his death?

No. Mormons believe He went to the spirit world after His death, just like everyone else, and was there for the three days prior to His resurrection.

Pardon the question, but were you ever a Mormon?

[Physics Guy]

I think that God cares about us, but it's pretty clear that our wants are not a top priority for God. Whatever purposes God has for the universe, keeping us happy or even safe does not seem to be the main one.

To blame religion for pretending that God will make things go right for us, if we only obey God's Do and Don't lists, is not a straw man fallacy. The hope that we can get an edge in life by investing in God's game like that really is a big part of many religions' appeal. It doesn't make much sense, though, for a really big God who can create whole universes.

I don't think it's absurd to imagine that a being like that might actually care about us tiny critters. Only people with limited minds like ours could imagine that a real universe could just be managed at a CEO level without awareness of the details; human projects can work like that, but only because we outsource so much to Nature, and that's not going to work to make Nature itself. I think the only way to manage reality may well be to micro-manage it. So God may well know us all intimately. Even if God does know and care about little us, though, there must be a lot of much bigger things happening, too.

If you're putting together trillions of nerve cells, for instance, you want the cells to be healthy, but you're not mainly thinking about how to give each cell the smoothest possible influx of ions and excretion of waste, and so on. You're thinking about motor reflexes, vision, memory, language. None of those things even have any meaning for individual cells. We shouldn't be expecting the universe to be a huge set of comfortable Petri dishes to culture each one of us for an optimal life as a cell. We should be expecting to be part of a brain.

Or something like that, I mean. Something we can't understand, that is much bigger than we are.

[Chap]

... it's pretty clear that our wants are not a top priority for God

Er, yes, if this thing you call 'God' is a real entity rather than just a noise people in Western society often make when they want to talk in certain ways.

So, that being the case, why should his/her/its wants be of any concern to us?

[dastardly stem]

It seems to me these two beliefs are at odds.

In traditional Christianity, Jesus was God. And God is a spirit being. He is not a physical man like he is within Mormonism. Jesus could just turn his body into a spirit an vacate the tomb.

So how did the empty tomb under Mormon theology work? Mormons clearly believe their physical body in mortality is physically linked to their perfected body. Because of the belief that burial is preferable to cremation.

Teleportation? Walking through walls? Why does having a body matter if you can just act like a spirit when it’s convenient?

uh...Not sure if anyone pointed this out, but it was long preferred that people be buried in Christianity/Protestantism outside of Mormonism. Mormonism has adopted this Christian preference. And yes, it all relates to the resurrection. This isn't a Mormon thing. Over the years and in time, some Mormons and Christians disregard this traditional view/practice.