DCP vastly oversimplifies fate of the unlearned

[drumdude]

This question is much on my mind here in coastal British Columbia, where the Native American cultures — or, as the Canadians would say, the the cultures of the First Nations — are very evident in place names and elsewhere. These peoples lived for dozens of generations without word of Jesus. According to traditional Christian theology, therefore, the ancestors of today’s indigenous peoples were and are damned. But this seems not only wildly unjust but utterly foreign to the nature of any God whom I could possible recognize as benevolent, let alone loving.

It is only during the past century or two, I think, that the question of “the salvation of the unevangelized” has become a real and urgent problem for believing Christians. Before that, unbelievers were mostly far away, culturally and linguistically foreign, and, thus easily demonized. For at least the past hundred or hundred and fifty years, though, believers of many different stripes (to say nothing of unbelievers) have been in regular contact with each other, even living in mixed communities alongside each other. It has become impossible to deny that many of Them are at least as good and sincere and rational as We are and, accordingly, it has become much harder to demonize or marginalize them, or to view their likely damnation (as it was once thought) with equanimity or indifference.

As I’ve noted here and elsewhere on more than a few occasions, one of the elements of the Restoration in which I take most delight is its way of dealing with — really, neutralizing — the problem of “the salvation of the unevangelized” that continues to challenge many other Christian denominations and thinkers. Our temples, of which more and more are being built and dedicated around the world, are the physical expression not only of our faith but of the “wideness in God’s mercy” that cares for those who died without hearing the good news of the Gospel during their mortal lifetimes.

This is a non problem for traditional Christianity. The solution to the issue is “God will find a way to take care of it.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_of_the_unlearned

Mormon temple work became a solution in search of a problem during the last 200 years post-enlightenment.

And the kicker is that Mormons ultimately believe the exact same thing as traditional Christians. Mormons know they can’t baptize everyone now. The records for every living and dead person don’t exist. So some far off magic event will happen and the records will magically appear so that the remaining names can be baptized for the dead. This is identical to the traditional Christian belief that it will all be magically taken care of by God later.

This is really pathetic stuff coming from a self described “historian of religion.”

[Res Ipsa]

The number of projected deaths for this year is about 60 million. That’s over 16,000 deaths a day. Does anybody think that the church has reduced the number of unbaptized dead people in any year since its founding?

ETA: In response to a question about baptism for the dead on Quora, I found some helpful information from a kindly fellow named Russell McGregor:

Four points about the question:

The phrase baptism for the dead does not require scare quotes. The inclusion of scare quotes looks like a sneer.
There is no such thing as “the Mormon Church.” (Why isn’t that in scare quotes?) The correct name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Nobody can pretend that the use of the “Mormon” epithet is merely a time-saver. Anyone who views the question history can see that the usual suspects have spent an inordinate amount of time camping out on this question, reversing every attempt to edit the name of the Church to the correct one.

The comments accompanying the edit reversals deny that “Mormon” is an epithet. The fact that those who insist on the use of the “Mormon” nickname are the most implacably hostile towards the Church of Jesus Christ is enough to conclusively prove that they do think it’s an epithet, otherwise they’d have no motivation to keep using it. Their claimed argumentation is clearly insincere.

With that out of the way: the Church used to publish an annual report that included a total of names cleared for Temple ordinances. In the years that this was done, the number was roughly equal to total membership, and tracked total membership growth fairly closely.

I don’t think the total number would have reached the billions yet.

[drumdude]

Exactly. The vast majority of “temple work” will be done after the second coming, or whatever climactic magic event occurs to give us access to all the records going back to Adam and Eve (which is also a mythical story).

DCP would have been better off saying temple work is symbolic of a belief in universal salvation. That Mormonism is explicit in that belief, whereas traditional Christianity just assumes it implicitly. That makes sense. But to say temple work is the mechanism that enables universal salvation is just nonsense. Plenty of names will be misspoken, if they were ever spoken at all. God will fix it all ultimately, which is what most Christians believes anyway. Does DCP think most Christians really believe the unlearned will be burning in hell on a technicality? Plenty of then don’t even believe in hell at all anymore.

[Rivendale]

Perhaps the question we should be asking is why the whites had to wait 1830 years to receive the priesthood? Perhaps the question we should be asking is why the many civilizations that have lived and never left any death records just have to suck it up and wait until the current group of Mormons get done with taking care of their people. When God shows up with his list of undocumented deaths that is where the Mormons are going to really get busy. Until then they wait.

[drumdude]

Perhaps the question we should be asking is why the whites had to wait 1830 years to receive the priesthood? Perhaps the question we should be asking is why the many civilizations that have lived and never left any death records just have to suck it up and wait until the current group of Mormons get done with taking care of their people. When God shows up with his list of undocumented deaths that is where the Mormons are going to really get busy. Until then they wait.

Bravo!

[huckelberry]

Exactly. The vast majority of “temple work” will be done after the second coming, or whatever climactic magic event occurs to give us access to all the records going back to Adam and Eve (which is also a mythical story).

DCP would have been better off saying temple work is symbolic of a belief in universal salvation. That Mormonism is explicit in that belief, whereas traditional Christianity just assumes it implicitly. That makes sense. But to say temple work is the mechanism that enables universal salvation is just nonsense. Plenty of names will be misspoken, if they were ever spoken at all. God will fix it all ultimately, which is what most Christians believes anyway. Does DCP think most Christians really believe the unlearned will be burning in hell on a technicality? Plenty of then don’t even believe in hell at all anymore.

drumdude, I think your comment about temple work being symbolic of a belief in universally available salvation makes sense. I might also think actual participation in the idea might reinforce it making people view it as more important.

A couple of days ago I was watching a you tube interview with Elaine Pagles(scholar early Christianity with interest in gnosticism and developement of the idea of satan). She described how as a young person she was converted at a Billy Graham event. She connected with groups of young evangelical types and was happily following the program. One day person in a family she knew met a tragic death.The evangelical group offered sympathy untill they heard that the person in question was Jewish. Oh then she is in hell they said. This comment pretty much ended Ms Pagles belief at the time.

Now there are a lot of people who do not follow that sort of thinking but its presence in Christian history is large. perhaps a direct clear denial of that view(all people not clearly Christian and saved go to hell) would be of real value. Perhaps enacting the belief has a value.

I have long thought baptism for the dead an unnecessary make work project. I am not really discarding that thought but over the years I find myself respecting the interest in geneology as linking awareness out into a larger scope of relationships

[Res Ipsa]

Exactly. The vast majority of “temple work” will be done after the second coming, or whatever climactic magic event occurs to give us access to all the records going back to Adam and Eve (which is also a mythical story).

DCP would have been better off saying temple work is symbolic of a belief in universal salvation. That Mormonism is explicit in that belief, whereas traditional Christianity just assumes it implicitly. That makes sense. But to say temple work is the mechanism that enables universal salvation is just nonsense. Plenty of names will be misspoken, if they were ever spoken at all. God will fix it all ultimately, which is what most Christians believes anyway. Does DCP think most Christians really believe the unlearned will be burning in hell on a technicality? Plenty of then don’t even believe in hell at all anymore.

drumdude, I think your comment about temple work being symbolic of a belief in universally available salvation makes sense. I might also think actual participation in the idea might reinforce it making people view it as more important.

A couple of days ago I was watching a you tube interview with Elaine Pagles(scholar early Christianity with interest in gnosticism and developement of the idea of satan). She described how as a young person she was converted at a Billy Graham event. She connected with groups of young evangelical types and was happily following the program. One day person in a family she knew met a tragic death.The evangelical group offered sympathy untill they heard that the person in question was Jewish. Oh then she is in hell they said. This comment pretty much ended Ms Pagles belief at the time.

Now there are a lot of people who do not follow that sort of thinking but its presence in Christian history is large. perhaps a direct clear denial of that view(all people not clearly Christian and saved go to hell) would be of real value. Perhaps enacting the belief has a value.

I have long thought baptism for the dead an unnecessary make work project. I am not really discarding that thought but over the years I find myself respecting the interest in geneology as linking awareness out into a larger scope of relationships

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that temple work has an important symbolic value is recognized in Mormonism as the embodiment of the Spirit of Elijah that turns the hearts of the children to the parents and the parents to the children.

[drumdude]

drumdude, I think your comment about temple work being symbolic of a belief in universally available salvation makes sense. I might also think actual participation in the idea might reinforce it making people view it as more important.

A couple of days ago I was watching a you tube interview with Elaine Pagles(scholar early Christianity with interest in gnosticism and developement of the idea of satan). She described how as a young person she was converted at a Billy Graham event. She connected with groups of young evangelical types and was happily following the program. One day person in a family she knew met a tragic death.The evangelical group offered sympathy untill they heard that the person in question was Jewish. Oh then she is in hell they said. This comment pretty much ended Ms Pagles belief at the time.

Now there are a lot of people who do not follow that sort of thinking but its presence in Christian history is large. perhaps a direct clear denial of that view(all people not clearly Christian and saved go to hell) would be of real value. Perhaps enacting the belief has a value.

I have long thought baptism for the dead an unnecessary make work project. I am not really discarding that thought but over the years I find myself respecting the interest in geneology as linking awareness out into a larger scope of relationships

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that temple work has an important symbolic value is recognized in Mormonism as the embodiment of the Spirit of Elijah that turns the hearts of the children to the parents and the parents to the children.

I do think that exists, but it’s secondary to the Mormon belief that the performance of ordinances for the dead is mechanistically and tangibly saving people. That is the primary purpose.

[Gadianton]

I highly doubt that LDS can distinguish themselves today by automatic salvation for those who die in ignorance. I think Christians generally believe the heathen who hasn't heard is saved. Religions pace each other according to the times; can't compare Mormonism to 13th century Christianity. I was even surprised to learn that Islam has similar views about those being saved who haven't heard. I tried to corner EV investigators on this one on my mission and it only worked once; most people leave it up to God and definitely do not believe people in antiquity who didn't hear about Jesus are automatically damned. Maybe hundreds of years ago, but not now.

Now -- where the rubber hits the road is when people have heard. And like Mormons, and especially Mormon apologists, God's wrath is particularly kindled at people who hear the message, reject it, and insult the messenger. For Christians or Muslims or Mormons, the pit of hell is primarily reserved to anyone who actively disagrees with them.

[Res Ipsa]

It's been a long time, but I seem to recall that temple work has an important symbolic value is recognized in Mormonism as the embodiment of the Spirit of Elijah that turns the hearts of the children to the parents and the parents to the children.

I do think that exists, but it’s secondary to the Mormon belief that the performance of ordinances for the dead is mechanistically and tangibly saving people. That is the primary purpose.

I think that may depend on who and when you ask.