Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

[Dr Exiled]

The GA's I grew up around didn't seem to have all that much money. If they did, they got it from prior business ventures and that is probably why they were called if not through family relations like the Richards, Kimballs, Youngs, etc. There were benefits like free tuition to BYU for the kids and the like, but they weren't that flashy. I had one neighbor, unrelated to any GA, who got a contract to supply tables and chairs to all the chapels. It made him pretty wealthy, but, he wasn't related to anyone. Also, he said that he gave the church a volume discount like so many Walmart suppliers do. Incidentally, the unwritten rule around the neighborhood was to not do business with the church, if you could avoid it, or only do part with the church for good will, as they had a reputation of using church authority to coerce discounts. Additionally, I was visiting my brother a few years back and talking in the foyer with some of the members, the topic of church contracting came up as some in the ward there were doing business with the church and they portrayed the church as wanting to use members so they could extract lower prices in the name of supporting the kingdom. So, I have to side with Dr. Moore on this one. I think everything is done for the benefit of the almighty Fund that will soon hit $1 Trillion. Be cheap and invest. #Trillions for Jesus.

[Doctor Steuss]

I'd wager that the real gravy train is all of the non-Mormon politicians and special interest groups that have to be paid off to make each Temple happen.

[drumdude]

This is the source he used:

https://web.archive.org/web/20211231053 ... le-project

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _standard/

One random page at a point in time? And how about checking the current link: https://goldner.com/Mormon-temple-project. Why do you think they took down the numbers? Maybe because someone bungled those numbers? Puff pages like this aren't authoritative of anything.

drumdude, are you also blindly taking Nemo's hatchet job at face value? Do the math. Hell, I'll do it for you: $2,500 per square foot, times temple size of 61,466 square feet, equals $153,665,000 for the plumbing and HVAC.

Okay guys, if you're ready to accept this at face value, might as well head back to the pews. I have nothing more to add here.

I’m just posting his source. I appreciate your pushback here which is likely true.

It’s not good when we criticize based on bad data, and it does seem like Nemo may have some bad data here.

[Dr Moore]

I'd wager that the real gravy train is all of the non-Mormon politicians and special interest groups that have to be paid off to make each Temple happen.

David Neilsen's 90 page Senate complaint seems to make this allegation. Funds would go missing from portfolios at ensign peak. Millions at a time. Then the ledger entries would be deleted, so the portfolio manager would just have to look the other way and not ask questions about where the funds went. No paper trail for even the all-seeing church auditors to find. Why create money out of thin air if the brethren don't take it? Only one other reason: paying bribes.

[Dr Moore]

One random page at a point in time? And how about checking the current link: https://goldner.com/Mormon-temple-project. Why do you think they took down the numbers? Maybe because someone bungled those numbers? Puff pages like this aren't authoritative of anything.

drumdude, are you also blindly taking Nemo's hatchet job at face value? Do the math. Hell, I'll do it for you: $2,500 per square foot, times temple size of 61,466 square feet, equals $153,665,000 for the plumbing and HVAC.

Okay guys, if you're ready to accept this at face value, might as well head back to the pews. I have nothing more to add here.

I’m just posting his source. I appreciate your pushback here which is likely true.

It’s not good when we criticize based on bad data, and it does seem like Nemo may have some bad data here.

Agreed. The puff page itself claimed $6-7 million for plumbing and HVAC for the temple. That works out to $105 psqft for both. Whether or not that figure is reliable, in no way does $105 psqft for plumbing and HVAC square with what's written later, that HVAC alone costs $300-400 psqft "typically" and $2,500 psqft for the temple project. Hence, why the page was redacted. People like Nemo coming along, using the numbers from a redacted webpage at face value, doing zero math or god forbid, actual field work, then making a big show about how they've found some sort of secret goldmine of emoluments. No less ridiculous than most of what Interpreter publishes.

[Kishkumen]

I think one needs to be careful on this subject. . . .

Thanks for these comments, Markk. You bring a much-needed industry perspective to the topic. I like Nemo, and I think he has interesting things to say, but his knowledge gap on some important topics must be kept in mind.

I think the bigger issue is why are they building these Temples when the membership is in decline.

Because they want temples close to the members, however many those may be. I enjoyed an exhibit about the temple at the Church History Museum. They had a big interactive screen with a map of the world that showed operating temples from 19th century Utah to the present. You just swiped along a timeline, and icons with the temples would appear on the map. It was really cool.

[Kishkumen]

People like Nemo coming along, using the numbers from a redacted webpage at face value, doing zero math or god forbid, actual field work, then making a big show about how they've found some sort of secret goldmine of emoluments. No less ridiculous than most of what Interpreter publishes.

Indeed. I like Nemo, but people should be more cautious when they really do not know something. I am happy that The Widow's Mite Report is around. That project seems to be more concerned with sticking to the facts as they are known and does not go out on a limb to rake the LDS Church over the coals unfairly.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Here’s the quote from the Reddit link:

Quotes from the contractor (emphasis mine)

Herman Goldner Co., Inc. recently completed installation of the plumbing and HVAC portions of the new Mormon Temple on Logan Square. The massive granite neoclassical temple with its two 200-foot spires has become one of the city’s most talked about structures. ... The cost of the project, by one estimate, was well over $200 million.

The plumbing and HVAC contract for the temple was valued between $6-7 million. The Mormon meetinghouse and 32-story residential tower followed the original project, at an estimated cost of $18 million.

The precision and quality required to complete the project were also far greater than would normally be expected for a standard HVAC/ plumbing project. Typically, such projects cost between $300 and $400 per square foot. The cost of the temple HVAC and plumbing work was approximately $2,500 per square foot.

Just to be clear. I was only asking if Dr. Moore read the piece, and I was curious what he thought of it. I don’t know anything about plumbing or construction.

- Doc

[Dr Moore]

On the other hand, while Nemo’s platform demands he do do better research than this one video, ultimately the church deserves every criticism it receives. One of the first lessons we learn in business leadership courses is that opaque, autocratic organizational leadership leads to more fraud, higher incidence of catastrophic errors, poor legal compliance, inferior products and a chronic failure to attract and retain the best and brightest talent. These outcomes are prominently on display in the Mormon church, visible to anyone who views the church as a corporation from the outside looking in. Not only do these factors erode public trust, they also cause serious harm while denying the existence of that harm until it is far too late for self-guided remediation.

[Dr Moore]

Here’s the quote from the Reddit link:

Quotes from the contractor (emphasis mine)

Just to be clear. I was only asking if Dr. Moore read the piece, and I was curious what he thought of it. I don’t know anything about plumbing or construction.

- Doc

My response is upthread. Did you read it? Are you determined to have no opinion if it means admitting the obvious, that Nemo got something wrong? You’re usually so quick to jump on inconsistent logic or facts. I can’t understand why in this instance you prefer to feign ignorance.