The Power of Disconfirming Evidence.

[Morley]

Yes, I think it's arrogant to make the claim of these spiritual gifts. You think I'm borderline arrogant to even question it.

Okay, MG, help me out of my arrogance. Maybe you'll tell me when someone in the contemporary CoJCoLDS has exercised abilities in a gift that's above and beyond what non-members demonstrate. Here are the categories I listed.

The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles

That’s a gotcha question. Jesus himself commanded/asked those that were witnesses to miracles and gifts of the Spirit to ‘tell no man’ and go on their way. Gifts of the Spirit are, as I’ve said, promised to the pure in heart that have broken hearts and contrite spirits.

The Savior also said that we should not seek for signs.

President Kimball is rather well known for emphasizing that ‘faith precedes the miracle’. Matthew 7:6-12 should also be kept in mind.

That’s all I have to say on that.

Except to say that Gifts of the Spirit are not unique to members of the LDS Church. God loves ALL His children.

Regards,
MG

It’s not at all a gotcha. My concern is only about your charge of arrogance. If there’s no evidence of the possession of spiritual gifts, then it can’t be borderline arrogance for me to question their existence.

And drumdude’s suggestion that ex-Mormons might possess a gift of expanded reason isn’t any more arrogant than you claiming a whole host of hidden spiritual gifts (healing, knowledge, wisdom, prophecy, miracle working, gift of tongues) for those aligned with your beliefs.

What do you think?

[MG 2.0]

That’s a gotcha question. Jesus himself commanded/asked those that were witnesses to miracles and gifts of the Spirit to ‘tell no man’ and go on their way. Gifts of the Spirit are, as I’ve said, promised to the pure in heart that have broken hearts and contrite spirits.

The Savior also said that we should not seek for signs.

President Kimball is rather well known for emphasizing that ‘faith precedes the miracle’. Matthew 7:6-12 should also be kept in mind.

That’s all I have to say on that.

Except to say that Gifts of the Spirit are not unique to members of the LDS Church. God loves ALL His children.

Regards,
MG

It’s not at all a gotcha. My concern is only about your charge of arrogance. If there’s no evidence of the possession of spiritual gifts, then it can’t be borderline arrogance for me to question their existence.

And drumdude’s suggestion that ex-Mormons might possess a gift of expanded reason isn’t any more arrogant than you claiming a whole host of hidden spiritual gifts (healing, knowledge, wisdom, prophecy, miracle working, gift of tongues) for those aligned with your beliefs.

What do you think?

Umm…what I already said. I think I’ve been rather clear. But I’m under no impression that everyone actually reads everything I write. Especially contextually.

That’s OK though. There’s only little pearls of wisdom scattered here and there, few and far between, in the grand scheme of anything I have to say. Ya’ have to really look.

But yeah, I think I’ve already answered your “What do you think?”

I’ve been active in a number of threads over the last couple or three days. I think I’m about ready to wrap up my participation on this one and probably the others unless I’m dragged back in kicking and screaming.

It’s kind of fun…then it’s not. And then it is again…later.

Thanks for the dialogue, Morley. Don’t know much about you or your family(?), but I hope all is well and that you’re happy. It’s kind of sad that in this kind of venue we’re talking with nameless faces.

Till later.

Regards,
MG

*edited to correct and change “nameless faces” to nameless non faces. Except for silly avatars.

[Bret Ripley]

Selah.

???

Selah =

[Morley]

deleted for snark

Be well, MG

[Res Ipsa]

???

Selah =

LOL! That there is the fur real littoral translation from the Ol Testament.

There’s town near Yakima called Selah. It translates as smooth or still water.

[Morley]

That’s OK though. There’s only little pearls of wisdom scattered here and there, few and far between, in the grand scheme of anything I have to say. Ya’ have to really look.

No hubris there.

You're confusing pearls with dingleberries.

[Marcus]

That’s OK though. There’s only little pearls of wisdom scattered here and there, few and far between, in the grand scheme of anything I have to say. Ya’ have to really look.

No hubris there.

You're confusing pearls with dingleberries.

Low-hanging fruit, for sure.

[MG 2.0]

That’s OK though. There’s only little pearls of wisdom scattered here and there, few and far between, in the grand scheme of anything I have to say. Ya’ have to really look.

No hubris there.

You're confusing pearls with dingleberries.

C’mon. You couldn’t help yourself, I know. One last jibe. Oh well.

Stay healthy, wealthy, and wise.

Later.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

Well said. I personally think that those of us who have been through a faith crisis, and realized that our deeply held beliefs turned out to be false, are much better prepared to deal with the world than those who only learn how to rationalize.

I think we've been given a gift, the ability to grow and reflect and leave no belief unchallenged and unexamined.

So what I hear you saying is that anyone who goes through a faith crisis and comes out the other end believing that the truth claims for the LDS Church may have a basis in truth comes to that point through mistaken/error ridden rationalization?

To say that you have a particular gift to “grow and reflect” in a way that an educated practicing member of the church doesn’t have, by default, borders on arrogance. I’ve mentioned the ‘arrogance thing’…with a dash of condescension thrown in…to Gadianton recently.

Now it appears to be showing its ugly head again.

Is this common among critics?

Regards,
MG

I can't speak for drumdude's intent, but I don't read it as him speaking about a dichotomy here. I read him as noting the value of experience if and when the opportunities that come from experience are taken as opportunities for growth. It is simply a fact that having one's overconfident assurance of their own correctness proven wrong is an opportunity to learn a larger lesson about how bias and knowledge work. There is a reason most of us know what is meant when someone's approach to a subject is called, "sophomoric".

Perhaps you may ask why you inserted a comparison here drumdude didn't in fact state in their post?

[Gadianton]

Good point H.

Given the doctrine of the pre-existence, if you think about being born and raised in Centerville Utah, going to a Church college, and "staying in the boat" reading fluff pieces and living the simple life MG is talking about just following what the leaders say, you have to wonder -- what is the point?

How much difference would there be between Satan's plan, and the insular Mormon experience?