River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Shulem, have you taken a look at a topo map for delmarva in order to match up some clues - like this hill thing? Is there a hill where the Book of Mormon/Delmarva map syncs up?

[Shulem]

Shulem, have you taken a look at a topo map for delmarva in order to match up some clues - like this hill thing? Is there a hill where the Book of Mormon/Delmarva map syncs up?

First, let it be understood that we need not consider modern day maps or maps that accurately reflect the actual topography because the Book of Mormon is NOT true and the stories told therein never really happened, anywhere. They were all stories invented by Joseph Smith who used maps available to him in his own day to assist him with his storytelling although he was prone to embellish and add things to suit his fancy.

Old maps of the region prior to Smith’s time show a variety of topography and description that gives a general sense of landscape design but is not necessary accurate.

[Moksha]

When dealing with a fictional story in an imagined landscape by a first-time author in the first half of the 19th Century, specific allowances can be made. Should Joseph have known what elements would go into such a battle? Could his audience discern the missing or incorrect elements?

When young Joseph was first telling these tales at the family home in the evening, I suspect none of the listeners picked up on faulty logistical elements. They just wanted to pass the time and enjoy the story. It was only when it was later passed off as ancient history that a critical eye even needed to be applied.

If LDS Church Members can embrace the story without critical thinking, what's it to us? It's not as urgent as more harmful stories like Trump being the rightfully elected President. That would be extremely harmful for those not wishing to live in a fascist dictatorship. Mormons actively harm only a small subset of the population and never propose "putting the gays" in gas ovens for mass cremation. Just a thought.


ByTW, great maps, Shulem..

[Shulem]

The precise numbers of dead are obviously unrealistic, and it seems anachronistic even to suppose that a Nephite scribe made them up, because I don't think ancient readers or writers expected such precise counts. Do casualty figures with single-digit precision appear in the Bible or any other ancient texts?

Physics Guy,

I hope you don’t think I brushed your suggestion aside earlier in not wanting to compare Alma’s casualty count with those of the Bible because the Bible and Book of Mormon are so far removed in time -- but perhaps we should take a look because Smith may have borrowed something. It seems, I’m always able to find a decent comparison or parallel in showing how Smith stole from the Bible in order to produce his Book of Mormon and it’s possible that in this case we may have another example.

Let’s look at the battle of A.I. which was probably not a historical account recorded in the book of Joshua and see what we find. Joshua took an army of 30,000 men to go out at night and fall upon the city of A.I. the next day:

24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of A.I. in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto A.I., and smote it with the edge of the sword.

25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of A.I..

Although the battle of A.I. is much different than the one recorded in Alma and the casualty count is a whole number, there are some interesting similarities:

• inhabitants of A.I. in the field

• in the wilderness wherein they chased them

• all that fell that day

• twelve thousand +

This causes me to pause. What do you think, PG? Doc? Anyone?

[Physics Guy]

The account in Joshua fits my recollection of Old Testament casualty figures as being pretty round numbers, unlike the figures in Alma. Joshua's emphasis on pursuit and following-up to finish off the enemy also sounds realistic to me. It's vicious and that's what has always won wars.

The fact that the Joshua account has this feature shows that this is one realistic detail that Smith could easily have copied from the Old Testament.

The Biblical Amalekites, who sound a lot like the Amlicites, are a people whom the Israelites were notoriously commanded to exterminate utterly. If you're telling a story about people who sound so much like Amalekites, it's pretty natural to think of ruthless pursuit.

[huckelberry]

Those numbers appear absurdly large. Swords?

From the story I do not see reason to think the counting happened the same day or even week. But I really do not imagine counting would have happened at all.

[Shulem]

Those numbers appear absurdly large. Swords?

From the story I do not see reason to think the counting happened the same day or even week. But I really do not imagine counting would have happened at all.

Please read the story, carefully, I explained it step by step. The counting of the dead Amlicites at Amnihu must have happened right away because Alma speedily retreated and took his journey west to recross the river Sidon in order to flee from the Lamanites who had combined with the Amlicites.

[Shulem]

The account in Joshua fits my recollection of Old Testament casualty figures as being pretty round numbers, unlike the figures in Alma.

Indeed, round numbers for casualty counts was the the rule of thumb, here are examples to that effect:

And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men

And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men

And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, all lusty, and all men of valour; and there escaped not a man

...for there fell an hundred and twenty thousand men that drew sword.

... so that all the men of the tower of Shechem died also, about a thousand men and women.

...and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand

And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith

And the children of Benjamin came forth out of Gibeah, and destroyed down to the ground of the Israelites that day twenty and two thousand men

And Benjamin went forth against them out of Gibeah the second day, and destroyed down to the ground of the children of Israel again eighteen thousand men

And the LORD smote Benjamin before Israel: and the children of Israel destroyed of the Benjamites that day twenty and five thousand and an hundred men

And there fell of Benjamin eighteen thousand men; all these were men of valour

...and pursued hard after them unto Gidom, and slew two thousand men

And the Philistines put themselves in array against Israel: and when they joined battle, Israel was smitten before the Philistines: and they slew of the army in the field about four thousand men

And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent: and there was a very great slaughter; for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter

And when the Syrians of Damascus came to succour Hadadezer king of Zobah, David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men

And David gat him a name when he returned from smiting of the Syrians in the valley of salt, being eighteen thousand men

And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there

Where the people of Israel were slain before the servants of David, and there was there a great slaughter that day of twenty thousand men

And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day

But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and there a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men that were left

He slew of Edom in the valley of salt ten thousand, and took Selah by war, and called the name of it Joktheel unto this day

And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well, armies have all sorts of people attached to them, even ancient ones. There were all sorts of soldiers and officers with all sorts of jobs to perform, even ancients ones. Having a company or detachment that'd be responsible for scavenging the battlefield for weapons, supplies, and whatever else they could get their hands on was standard procedure. Having a historiographer gathering data from the lieutenants or captains wouldn't have been unusual.* This is why the LACK of information on deaths-by-disease seems odd to me. Sure they could just tally it all together for brevity, but the story doesn't read that way. In fact, deaths by disease and the miracles of healings would've most certainly been added to the record, but I'm not the author. in my opinion, due to Joseph Smith's lack of military experience it doesn't surprise me he wouldn't have known that bit.

edit: Out of curiosity, has anyone here read The Late War, Between the United States and Great Britain, From June, 1812, to February, 1815? Does it note deaths by disease? I skimmed large swaths of the book years ago, but I don't remember 'deaths by disease' tallies.

* rulers always needed to know numbers in order to not only to kill more of their own people for the war machine, but to understand where their legacy was going to land

- Doc

[Shulem]

edit: Out of curiosity, has anyone here read The Late War, Between the United States and Great Britain, From June, 1812, to February, 1815? Does it note deaths by disease? I skimmed large swaths of the book years ago, but I don't remember 'deaths by disease' tallies.

Disease? Not so much but many were slain and counted, although not on the same scale as the nation states of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was familiar with the language and terminology of Late Late War:


And the killed and wounded of the host of Columbia, were an hundred two score and ten

And the slain and the wounded of the king, that day, were an hundred three score and ten

And the loss of the men of Columbia was about three hundred slain and wounded

Inasmuch as they slew about two hundred of the men of Britain that day; and drove the host of them from the island

Moreover, the slain and wounded of the king were two hundred two score and ten ; of the men of Columbia about three score were slain and maimed

Now the slain and the wounded on board the Chesapeake, were an hundred two score and four ; and there fell of the servants of the king about two hundred

Now the loss of the men of Britain was about an hundred two score and ten ; and of the men of Columbia there was one slain and seven wounded

And the slain and wounded of the king that day, was about an hundred thirty and five ; beside there were a thousand prisoners

And the number of the people of Columbia that were massacred and burnt alive in their houses, that day, was about four hundred ; however, there were an hundred savages slain

And slew about two hundred of their warriors leaving not a man to tell the tidings

And the number of savages slain that day was about three hundred

And, on the eighteenth day of the same month, he took the towns, and destroyed them, and slew three score of the savages

And Floyd went against them with boldness and triumphed over them and killed about two hundred of them

Seven hundred and fifty of the savage warriors were found slain

Moreover, the loss of the men of Columbia that day was an hundred slain, and two hundred two score and ten wounded, and the loss of the king was about an hundred four score and one

Now the people of Columbia, who were massacred that day, were about two hundred two score and ten

etc