Did your exit bring you sadness or happiness?

[Chap]

can be answered by saying that Japan (like many other countries) contains people who are in a considerable degree decent, generous and kind, without having any of the 'sources of 'morality' mentioned by bill4long, or indeed any with which he is likely to be familiar. My point being that if you do not starve, terrorise or oppress people or those they hold dear, most people in the world will behave pretty decently without reference to any system of religious belief.

Of course, Japan is no more immune than any other society to having difficult problems that can impact the lives of its inhabitants. But that was not my point.

Yes, and with the forward-looking vision of the issue at hand, I thought Japan was an odd place to aspire to be like. One that is deeply xenophobic and highly racist, has a precipitously declining population, as well as a malaise that drives people to become shut-ins or take their own lives.

So, OK. If that is your idea of a nice future, I guess I can't argue with you. It's just not my idea of a nice future.

OK. I have tried to make the point that I am talking about whether or not Japanese people as individuals generally act decently without the benefit of major influence from an Abrahamic theistic religion, as opposed to advocating that Japanese society society is in a condition that merits being treated as a desirable model to follow. But I do not seem to have got that over to you. Never mind.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I understood Chap’s intent and posts clearly, though I do think Kish is doing his due diligence by questioning dogma, so to speak.

What’s interesting is the US Army essentially adopted Bushido’s The Seven Virtues (I think are the foundation of Bushido) as their own:

7V - rectitude, courage, benevolence, politeness, sincerity, honor and loyalty

US Army ‘LDRSHIP’ - Loyalty • Duty • Respect • Selfless service • Honor • Integrity • Personal courage.

- Doc

Note: from poking around the ‘net to make my post I noticed some say there are 8 virtues, whatevs. I just wanted to support Chap’s point that the Japanese, broadly speaking (and from personal experience interacting with them) seem to have internalized some interesting virtues as a culture.

Note2: there are two Japanese guys staying at the same hotel I’m currently staying at. They seem to be low key, polite, and very deliberate in their behavior

[drumdude]

I get the impression that the Japanese politeness is the consequence of a very strong social pressure imposed to prevent them from being viewed as dishonorable.

I think Mormonism has similar cultural pressures to live a certain way. A child leaving the church or sinning brings a similar, but maybe smaller, amount of "shame" to the family.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I get the impression that the Japanese politeness is the consequence of a very strong social pressure imposed to prevent them from being viewed as dishonorable.

I think Mormonism has similar cultural pressures to live a certain way. A child leaving the church or sinning brings a similar, but maybe smaller, amount of "shame" to the family.

I disagree to some extent (not totally) with regard to to Mormonism. I think Mormonism’s culture mirrors the Russian culture, especial something called ‘Vranyo’.

White lies or half-lies in Russian culture, told without the intention of (maliciously) deceiving, but as a fantasy, suppressing unpleasant parts of the truth.

More on vranyo:

https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/01/0 ... -pub-86132

tl;dr - dishonesty and lying is baked into Russian culture, and it’s fairly complex

[drumdude]

I get the impression that the Japanese politeness is the consequence of a very strong social pressure imposed to prevent them from being viewed as dishonorable.

I think Mormonism has similar cultural pressures to live a certain way. A child leaving the church or sinning brings a similar, but maybe smaller, amount of "shame" to the family.

I disagree to some extent (not totally) with regard to to Mormonism. I think Mormonism’s culture mirrors the Russian culture, especial something called ‘Vranyo’.

White lies or half-lies in Russian culture, told without the intention of (maliciously) deceiving, but as a fantasy, suppressing unpleasant parts of the truth.

More on vranyo:

https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/01/0 ... -pub-86132

tl;dr - dishonesty and lying is baked into Russian culture, and it’s fairly complex

Don't let them know about defenestration!

[Kishkumen]

OK. I have tried to make the point that I am talking about whether or not Japanese people as individuals generally act decently without the benefit of major influence from an Abrahamic theistic religion, as opposed to advocating that Japanese society society is in a condition that merits being treated as a desirable model to follow. But I do not seem to have got that over to you. Never mind.

I am sorry to be frustrating yet again, Chap. My understanding of the kind of argument bill4long was engaging in is that it concerns the foundations of a culture or civilization, not just individuals within it. I think it is worthwhile to wonder what happens when some of the load-bearing structures of a civilization are rejected or torn out. Of course, there may not be much one can do with that knowledge except to observe the outcome.

I think that saying Japanese people seem to get along OK without Judeo-Christian culture is irrelevant, since that was not in the make-up of their civilization in the first place. Of course they get along fine without it. I think it would be much more worrisome if they were forced to embrace it en masse. It is taking out the constituent elements of a culture or the attempt to force something on it that people usually worry about. Comparisons across cultures are always tricky business.

[Chap]

...
It will be pretty good until the tides of Judeo/Christian ethics are finally gone. (The West -- yeah, you -- is still sucking at it's teat to some degree.)

At that point, you may not like the situation. (If you're still alive.)

...

I think that saying Japanese people seem to get along OK without Judeo-Christian culture is irrelevant, since that was not in the make-up of their civilization in the first place. Of course they get along fine without it.

As you can see, bill4long was suggesting that the absence of "Judeo/Christian ethics" (whatever those may be thought to be) would lead to very unpleasant consequences. My point (a limited and simple one) was that there are many decent people in the world (e.g. in Japan, though I could have named several other countries) who manage very well without anything that could be so described. Thus his expectation of disaster had no clear basis.

[Kishkumen]

As you can see, bill4long was suggesting that the absence of "Judeo/Christian ethics" (whatever those may be thought to be) would lead to very unpleasant consequences. My point (a limited and simple one) was that there are many decent people in the world (e.g. in Japan, though I could have named several other countries) who manage very well without anything that could be so described. Thus his expectation of disaster had no clear basis.

Yeah, and I don’t understand why you think that is at all relevant. The question is not what happens hypothetically in a vacuum, but what happens when civilizations that have developed in a particular way jettison some of those foundations. Saying that Japan gets along well enough without Judeo-Christian values is practically a non-sequitur. You might just as well respond with something like, “Peewee Herman never had a problem riding his bicycle,” and it would make just as much sense.

[drumdude]

As you can see, bill4long was suggesting that the absence of "Judeo/Christian ethics" (whatever those may be thought to be) would lead to very unpleasant consequences. My point (a limited and simple one) was that there are many decent people in the world (e.g. in Japan, though I could have named several other countries) who manage very well without anything that could be so described. Thus his expectation of disaster had no clear basis.

Yeah, and I don’t understand why you think that is at all relevant. The question is not what happens hypothetically in a vacuum, but what happens when civilizations that have developed in a particular way jettison some of those foundations. Saying that Japan gets along well enough without Judeo-Christian values is practically a non-sequitur. You might just as well respond with something like, “Peewee Herman never had a problem riding his bicycle,” and it would make just as much sense.

I think the difference comes down to what you believe the real foundation of values is. Is Christianity built on a wider universal set of values, such that the removal of Christian values does not have the negative effect you’re suggesting.

[Kishkumen]

I think the difference comes down to what you believe the real foundation of values is. Is Christianity built on a wider universal set of values, such that the removal of Christian values does not have the negative effect you’re suggesting.

Well, we can all engage in pointless hypotheticals. I have no reason to think yours are any more valid than mine.