River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yeah... I think the lack of information in 'The Great War' with regard to war and disease is probably another tell because the same lacking information didn't show up in the Book of Mormon. In other words, the Book of Mormon has the same holes at The Great War.

[Shulem]

The very idea of the Nephites counting 12,532 dead Amlicites in the aftermath of battle prior to fleeing west to recross the Sidon river and return to Zarahemla is ludicrous. Given the situation at hand and the time constraints it would have been more believable if Smith had simply said, “many thousands” as he did for another battle 20 years later.

That was Joseph Smith’s blooper! I’ve caught Smith red-handed making up numbers out of thin air!

If I was a Book of Mormon apologist, I can’t fathom an appropriate answer in how Alma came up with the number “12,532” dead Amlicites after hunkering down for the night and preparing to retreat the next day upon learning of an overwhelming Lamanite army headed their way.

I suppose my only explanation would be that the Spirit whispered the number into the ears of Alma who recorded it into his account. Therefore, it had to be a revelation from God!

Problem solved. The Book of Mormon is true! Time to go back to church...

[Shulem]

Those numbers appear absurdly large. Swords?

Yes, swords:

Therefore the people of the Nephites were aware of the intent of the Amlicites, and therefore they did prepare to meet them; yea, they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows, and with stones, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons of war, of every kind.

Alma and his captains prepared for war and prepared to take the battle to the Amlicites upon their own turf.

And thus they were prepared to meet the Amlicites at the time of their coming. And there were appointed captains, and higher captains, and chief captains, according to their numbers.

Amlici readied his own army and prepared for war.

And it came to pass that Amlici did arm his men with all manner of weapons of war of every kind; and he also appointed rulers and leaders over his people, to lead them to war against their brethren.

The battle ensued upon the hill Amnihu which was east of the river Sidon which ran by the land of Zarahemla.

And it came to pass that the Amlicites came upon the hill Amnihu, which was east of the river Sidon, which ran by the land of Zarahemla, and there they began to make war with the Nephites.

Bear in mind that this is the very region in which the river flowed into the nearby sea because we are informed that the bodies cast into the river were therefore buried at sea because they were naturally taken downstream by the current.

Thus, the city of Zarahemla is close to the OCEAN!

[huckelberry]

The very idea of the Nephites counting 12,532 dead Amlicites in the aftermath of battle prior to fleeing west to recross the Sidon river and return to Zarahemla is ludicrous. Given the situation at hand and the time constraints it would have been more believable if Smith had simply said, “many thousands” as he did for another battle 20 years later.

That was Joseph Smith’s blooper! I’ve caught Smith red-handed making up numbers out of thin air!

If I was a Book of Mormon apologist, I can’t fathom an appropriate answer in how Alma came up with the number “12,532” dead Amlicites after hunkering down for the night and preparing to retreat the next day upon learning of an overwhelming Lamanite army headed their way.

I suppose my only explanation would be that the Spirit whispered the number into the ears of Alma who recorded it into his account. Therefore, it had to be a revelation from God!

Problem solved. The Book of Mormon is true! Time to go back to church...

shulem, if I was an apologist for the book I would say Alma made an eyeball estimate from a distance. I might even say old conventions inclined to overestimate that sort of guess. Book of Mormon swords were flint even though there is some mention of Nephi doing metal work. though with such large numbers perhaps many swords were wood sticks with a point on one end.

[Shulem]

shulem, if I was an apologist for the book I would say Alma made an eyeball estimate from a distance. I might even say old conventions inclined to overestimate that sort of guess.

But responsible captains are determined to report accurate numbers and when they are unable to provide an exact number then it’s going to be a ROUND number (estimate) like so many given in other accountings from wars of the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

Counting bodies from a distance does not take into consideration those hidden in the grass, behind bushes, and otherwise hidden from sight. I’m afraid the 12,532 is a fixed number based on an exact count from Alma’s captains and is the total sum of those reports. But when considering the limited time and dire circumstances, it’s simply not reasonable to think that such a count was ever taken other than in Smith’s mind in telling a whopper of a story while his head was buried in a hat. If Smith had said 12,000 instead of 12,532, then the story would make sense. But Smith screwed up and I am happily pointing that out for the record!

[huckelberry]

shulem, if I was an apologist for the book I would say Alma made an eyeball estimate from a distance. I might even say old conventions inclined to overestimate that sort of guess.

But responsible captains are determined to report accurate numbers and when they are unable to provide an exact number then it’s going to be a ROUND number (estimate) like so many given in other accountings from wars of the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

Counting bodies from a distance does not take into consideration those hidden in the grass, behind bushes, and otherwise hidden from sight. I’m afraid the 12,532 is a fixed number based on an exact count from Alma’s captains and is the total sum of those reports. But when considering the limited time and dire circumstances, it’s simply not reasonable to think that such a count was ever taken other than in Smith’s mind in telling a whopper of a story while his head was buried in a hat. If Smith had said 12,000 instead of 12,532, then the story would make sense. But Smith screwed up and I am happily pointing that out for the record!

Shulem, I proposed guess as a possibility. I think you are correct though that the use of exact number sounds like a storyteller getting carried away with his invention.

Similarly I was struck by this ,
Alma 2:24 wrote:
Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

As I read I understood this to be the report of an overnight reconnaissance by four individual. This reported change seems way too large to happen overnight and by spied out overnight. Story is fantasy imagery.

('on the morrow they returned to camp in great haste")

[Shulem]

ByTW, great maps, Shulem..

Thanks.

Here are more old maps of Delmarva in which someone with a fertile imagination may freely conjure up all kinds of stories:







Look at that beautiful narrow neck of land that leads into the land northward!

[Shulem]

Shulem, I proposed guess as a possibility. I think you are correct though that the use of exact number sounds like a storyteller getting carried away with his invention.

Similarly I was struck by this ,
Alma 2:24 wrote:
Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

As I read I understood this to be the report of an overnight reconnaissance by four individual. This reported change seems way too large to happen overnight and by spied out overnight. Story is fantasy imagery.

('on the morrow they returned to camp in great haste")

We are in agreement, huck.

It should also be pointed out that the body counts was for the battle that took place at the hill Amnihu and does not include the second battle that took place the next day at the river Sidon. That battle happened so fast whereby bodies were tossed in the river and otherwise left to rot. In reference to that battle, Alma goes on to say in chapter three, “the number of the slain were not numbered, because of the greatness of their number.”

As I mentioned earlier, bodies that were tossed into the river were counted as being buried at sea. That is something Book of Mormon apologists will have a hard time explaining based on their geography models. But my model has no problem showing how Zarahemla and Sidon were close to sea. My model takes into consideration different aspects of elevation & direction which is something all the other models grapple with and misinterpret.

In other words, my model is the One True Model! I say that in the name of Delmarva, Amen.

[Shulem]

Click and let load
Google Earth Mesoamerican River Sidon


SHOW ME the river Sidon! Grijalva River? Usumacinta River?

Take your pick! Show me the location of the hill Amnihu in relation to the river and the land of Zarahemla.

Then, show where the bodies of those who were cast into the river managed to find their way along the current that leads to the depths of the sea.

And now as many of the Lamanites and the Amlicites who had been slain upon the bank of the river Sidon were cast into the waters of Sidon; and behold their bones are in the depths of the sea, and they are many.

[Shulem]

SHOW ME the river Sidon!

No.