DarthJ is a prophet

[Fence Sitter]

Meetings have always been boring. I left activity long before correlation because meetings were already so boring. Though, I agree correlation has made it so much worse.

[Bond]

I'm shocked the general conferences are still like 10+ hours over two days. Shocking this hasn't been cut in half.

[Physics Guy]

Being an active Mormon does seem to demand more time spent in church activities than other religions require. From the number of titled callings and offices that the LDS church seems to have, I also get the impression that Mormon religious activities are more hierarchically structured than others. Not only do people have to participate in a lot of activities: the activities all seem to have to be led by officially designated leaders, most of whom seem to have officially designated counsellors or deputies or something as well. So the leaders have to put in the extra effort of leading, and the other participants have to submit to being led.

A real army that is really at war is hierarchical and regimented, but the obvious urgent purpose of winning the war and going home alive makes some boredom worthwhile—and some of the organised activity is more exciting than anyone wants. A real army doing peacetime training is still like that to some extent. The things you practice and learn do have an obvious purpose, at least most of the time.

Years ago, though, I also did some historical reenacting of 19th century battles. There were sergeants and officers and uniforms and parades and drill practice. It was trying to duplicate an army at war, but only superficially. We fired our muskets without any musket balls, so we did not practice shooting. Few of the fancily dressed-up officers were leaders by training or aptitude. It was a great hobby, actually, if you pursued it with the aim that my Dad used to explain to the guys in his reenactment section, of representing accurate military history within the constraint that it had to be fun. If somebody got carried away with their role, though, it could be the most miserable experience: military discipline not for the sake of winning a war but just for the sake of playing soldier. Stand to attention in ranks in the sun for an hour while I ramble, not because I have anything important to tell you, but just because I want to stand here in front in my gigantic hat.

I'm not thinking of that reenactment colonel preening in his giant hat as an analogy for Mormon leaders, necessarily, but maybe more for the LDS church itself. When people talk about how demanding and boring Mormon church life can be, I get the impression of an organisation that is all dressed up with no place to go. The church seems to be run like an army, but its only actual purpose seems to be to exist as The Church. That must get boring, all right.

[Philo Sofee]

I'm shocked the general conferences are still like 10+ hours over two days. Shocking this hasn't been cut in half.

Well, I mean, Jesus has a lot to say after 6 months of silence...

[Doctor Steuss]

Got any juicy tidbits?

- Doc

If I remember when I get home tonight, I'll check with my dad to see if he still has them, and get an example.

Unfortunately, he doesn't know where they are (and might not have them anymore). I was also off on timeline. They were from the 50s. From his memory, around early/mid-60s is when they stopped using stuff that was written by individual authors, and used only "Church" written/published manuals. He had a few Melchizedek Priesthood manuals sitting on his shelf from late-60s through mid-70s, and he checked the title-pages and they were all "Church" written/published.

[Marcus]

Being an active Mormon does seem to demand more time spent in church activities than other religions require. From the number of titled callings and offices that the LDS church seems to have, I also get the impression that Mormon religious activities are more hierarchically structured than others...

And patriarchally hierarchical as well. When I was in, women weren't allowed to hold a woman-planned, woman-organized event for a women's group, run by women and attended by women, without a "priesthood holder" (male) in attendance.

I now know there's nothing weirder than having a lone, random, adult male wondering around girls camp, night and day, watching 12 to 16 year old girls play volleyball, swim, wander around in their nightclothes, kneel down for morning and evening prayers, etc. He has to be there because the Mormon god says any and every penispriesthood holder has a higher level of authority than any female on the planet. And Mormon women can't be left alone to do anything on their own.

Thankfully I live in a different world now.

[Philo Sofee]

Being an active Mormon does seem to demand more time spent in church activities than other religions require. From the number of titled callings and offices that the LDS church seems to have, I also get the impression that Mormon religious activities are more hierarchically structured than others...

And patriarchally hierarchical as well. When I was in, women weren't allowed to hold a woman-planned, woman-organized event for a women's group, run by women and attended by women, without a "priesthood holder" (male) in attendance.

I now know there's nothing weirder than having a lone, random, adult male wondering around girls camp, night and day, watching 12 to 16 year old girls play volleyball, swim, wander around in their nightclothes, kneel down for morning and evening prayers, etc. He has to be there because the Mormon god says any and every penispriesthood holder has a higher level of authority than any female on the planet. And Mormon women can't be left alone to do anything on their own.

Thankfully I live in a different world now.

That is SOOOOOOOOO LDS-ism! Women cannot be trusted without priesthood to oversee everything is done properly..... Makes ya gag doesn't it?

[tagriffy]

yes.

[Marcus]

And patriarchally hierarchical as well. When I was in, women weren't allowed to hold a woman-planned, woman-organized event for a women's group, run by women and attended by women, without a "priesthood holder" (male) in attendance.

I now know there's nothing weirder than having a lone, random, adult male wondering around girls camp, night and day, watching 12 to 16 year old girls play volleyball, swim, wander around in their nightclothes, kneel down for morning and evening prayers, etc. He has to be there because the Mormon god says any and every penispriesthood holder has a higher level of authority than any female on the planet. And Mormon women can't be left alone to do anything on their own.

Thankfully I live in a different world now.

That is SOOOOOOOOO LDS-ism! Women cannot be trusted without priesthood to oversee everything is done properly..... Makes ya gag doesn't it?

Yes it does! I am very grateful to hear from men like you who feel differently. You'd think one would get used to it, but no. It still hurts. And hurts. And hurts. So, thank you again. I appreciate very much your comments.

[Physics Guy]

There are churches with plenty of women priests and pastors, but there are also quite a few non-Mormon denominations that restrict leadership roles to just men. And in between there are groups that let women do important practical jobs, even ones with a lot of decision-making responsibility, but only allow men to hold the "spiritual" offices that let you stand at the front and talk every week.

(I was quite involved in one like that for quite a few years—it was the best church we could find for us at first, but over the years it evolved. I decided that I just wouldn't take any positions that weren't also open to women. Eventually we did leave, not just over that issue, but it didn't help.)

I've long suspected that the real reason these kinds of churches have offices like "Elder" that are only open to men is to attract men into involvement by giving them a chance to look important. Sometimes elders actually do quite a lot (nothing that women couldn't do just as well, of course), but it also seems to be perfectly acceptable to have elders who do nothing but stand at the front of the church once every couple of months. So the title can work well as a pure honorific that probably keeps a few guys regularly attending, and donating, who might otherwise not.

I doubt that many men who would otherwise be home watching football are attending church faithfully just because they are Elders. I do think that it can work more subtly, though. Men who are sincere and committed church members are probably somewhat more likely to stay that way over the long haul, if it becomes part of their identity to be a pillar of the congregation. As work or family stress mounts, or middle-age disgruntlement rises, having an official church status of some kind might fairly often make the difference between drifting away from the church and settling more deeply into the groove.

Churches try to hang onto women as well, but they seem to use different strategies. I think they try to rope in women by giving them actual work, but don't find it necessary to attach formal titles to the jobs women do. Just the thought that the church somehow needs her can be enough to keep a woman attending, I'm afraid I suspect, whereas a man is more likely to keep coming back to something that gives him an ego boost.

I don't imagine that many church leaders are consciously using those tactics. I just think they're part of the implicit logic of the church as a cultural community—collective instincts that everyone follows without considering why the instincts are there. Roping in men to the church isn't the reason why the male-only status roles exist. It's just the real reason why they exist, in my view.