Anderson's Venezuela bakery story...as a lever to get you to pay tithing

[Philo Sofee]

Use your common sense. Many of us accumulate worldly goods. Don’t tell me that this hasn’t been a major focus in your own life. So we accumulate goods and money. What do we do with our resources? That is what matters. Jesus would condemn those that are selfish with the goods that they accumulate. But I would tend to think he didn’t go around and teach people to be unproductive and shun the accumulation of wealth.

No, he didn't. You are correct. He said accumulate for one reason, to give it to the poor. I agree, what we do with our resources matters. Now if you really want to be a disciple of Jesus and follow him, it follows you will do it his way. His way? Give it all away for the Kingdom of God. And this the church has not done. Is not doing, and I suspect will not do, all the while attempting to justify their own ad hoc reasons for not doing so, even stupidly and incorrectly invoking Jesus' name every now and again to justify their own seered souls.

[Kishkumen]

No, he didn't. You are correct. He said accumulate for one reason, to give it to the poor. I agree, what we do with our resources matters. Now if you really want to be a disciple of Jesus and follow him, it follows you will do it his way. His way? Give it all away for the Kingdom of God. And this the church has not done. Is not doing, and I suspect will not do, all the while attempting to justify their own ad hoc reasons for not doing so, even stupidly and incorrectly invoking Jesus' name every now and again to justify their own seered souls.

Recent events have me shaking my head regarding the LDS Church's probity and trustworthiness concerning money. Between shady apostles and Ensign Peak, there is no way I would send the LDS Church one thin dime.

[MG 2.0]

Yup.

Goes a long way.

Gets you to places you’ve possibly never been.

Regards,
MG

Called it!

You will need to explain to this “toddler”.

As far as my eyes can see in regards to your posting in this thread you have a very narrow view of what God would have for His children. And what He expects them to do with what they have in abundance. And what He is able to accomplish through a church that accumulates wealth.

Broaden your horizons is all I can suggest.

Oh, and don’t be so gosh darn judgmental.

And, again, dagnabbit, grow a pair.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Called it!

You will need to explain to this “toddler”.

As far as my eyes can see in regards to your posting in this thread you have a very narrow view of what God would have for His children. And what He expects them to do with what they have in abundance. And what He is able to accomplish through a church that accumulates wealth.

Broaden your horizons is all I can suggest.

Oh, and don’t be so gosh darn judgmental.

And, again, dagnabbit, grow a pair.

Regards,
MG

Sure. You ignored the entire substance of what I said and continued to talk about me. It's pathological with you.

[huckelberry]

Use your common sense. Many of us accumulate worldly goods. Don’t tell me that this hasn’t been a major focus in your own life. So we accumulate goods and money. What do we do with our resources? That is what matters. Jesus would condemn those that are selfish with the goods that they accumulate. But I would tend to think he didn’t go around and teach people to be unproductive and shun the accumulation of wealth.

No, he didn't. You are correct. He said accumulate for one reason, to give it to the poor. I agree, what we do with our resources matters. Now if you really want to be a disciple of Jesus and follow him, it follows you will do it his way. His way? Give it all away for the Kingdom of God. And this the church has not done. Is not doing, and I suspect will not do, all the while attempting to justify their own ad hoc reasons for not doing so, even stupidly and incorrectly invoking Jesus' name every now and again to justify their own seered souls.

Philo both you and Res Ipsa are making this point. I feel like giving it push back for further thought not so much to support LDS money policy.

I do not think it makes a wit of sense to say goods are only to give to the poor. The idea leaves out the whole process of investment, work production of goods and services, distribution of those to people buying them. I think we all realize that without the whole economic enterprise there are no goods to help the poor. Without economic money management there would be no fatted calf for the returning prodigal son.

But there are statements from Jesus which appear to completely ignore this. Give away money and "follow me" What in the world does follow me mean beyond travel down to Jerusalem? I can think of three general considerations which might understand what Jesus was thinking. One would be he was naïve. The second perhaps related but more commonly observed he may have thought God was about to end the natural system with a son of Man descending to eliminate want competition greed and war. A third view is that Jesus was making prophetic enactments to cause people to rethink and change their attitudes about pride greed money and disregard of others. Jesus was inclined to make exaggerated statements for impact which were unlikely to be meant literally but clearly pointed to valuable meaning.

Obviously for followers of Jesus decades and centuries later the third option was forced upon them because obviously the natural order did not end and the requirements of a functioning economy continues. I do not think it is possible to be sure exactly how Jesus was thinking of this. It may be he was searching for an understanding of the situation himself. I think he intended an end to the natural order of dog eat dog. Perhaps he could see that his efforts would at best be a seed planted that would take a long time to grow.

I might observe that the proposal to sell all and follow was recorded as being delivered only to a select few individuals. It was not general policy, it was theatrical enactment of a caring community to be an example to the world.

When I was still in high school I had relatives living below ensign peak up the road from the capitol building. I remember hiking up to the top of the little peak. The area all around was sagebrush and grass. Some fifteen or so years ago I returned and found that open area completely filled with expensive homes. I guess that points to the question but does not supply a simple answer.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks, Huck. Stepping out of the context of COJCOLDS accumulation of wealth, I think that belief in Jesus as God requires wrestling with some hard problems. Although I don’t pretend to have any expertise on the subject, apocalyptic Jewish preacher seem to me most consistent with the words attributed to him. The notion that his disciples would not get their reward in heaven until over 2000 years has passed doesn’t, in my opinion, fit with the feeling of urgency in his message. Drop everything, including your family, and follow me (whatever that means) isn’t sustainable for anything close to 2000 years.

I don’t consider Jesus divine, and I don’t claim to be a disciple or follower. That puts him in that large category of people I use as resources to help me be a good person. If I believed he was God? I imagine I’d try my best to follow what he taught to his disciples and simply trust him to know me and be my judge. That’s pretty much what I see Christians I’ve had these kind of discussions do in their daily lives.

What I tend to push back on is people who try to rationalize doing things that are contrary to Jesus’ words. Prosperity gospel preachers, for example. 7th Mountain Dominionist Type sects for another example.

I’m going to push back on your example of the rich man. That’s one of the most rationalized away of Jesus’ teachings. There is nothing in the text that indicates this was special teachings for one guy or a limited audience. What he said is consistent with the attitude he expresses about wealth and worldly riches throughout the gospels. I think it’s perfectly fine to have aspirational goals that one cannot meet. My objection is inventing rationalizations to validate the shortcomings as being Christlike.

I dunno if that’s an adequate response to your comments. If not, let me know and I’ll take another shot.

[MG 2.0]

You will need to explain to this “toddler”.

As far as my eyes can see in regards to your posting in this thread you have a very narrow view of what God would have for His children. And what He expects them to do with what they have in abundance. And what He is able to accomplish through a church that accumulates wealth.

Broaden your horizons is all I can suggest.

Oh, and don’t be so gosh darn judgmental.

And, again, dagnabbit, grow a pair.

Regards,
MG

Sure. You ignored the entire substance of what I said and continued to talk about me. It's pathological with you.

I think at this juncture we are circling around each other. I maintain that you have a narrow view of how Jesus’s teachings can be applied. huckleberry alludes to various ways in which we might apply the teachings of Christ as we live in the modern world.

You seem to have a very limited perspective. At least from my viewpoint.

Both of individuals and of the church in regards to stewardship of resources.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Sure. You ignored the entire substance of what I said and continued to talk about me. It's pathological with you.

I think at this juncture we are circling around each other. I maintain that you have a narrow view of how Jesus’s teachings can be applied. huckleberry alludes to various ways in which we might apply the teachings of Christ as we live in the modern world.

You seem to have a very limited perspective. At least from my viewpoint.

Both of individuals and of the church in regards to stewardship of resources.

Regards,
MG

Blah, blah, blah more talking about me.

[MG 2.0]

I think at this juncture we are circling around each other. I maintain that you have a narrow view of how Jesus’s teachings can be applied. huckleberry alludes to various ways in which we might apply the teachings of Christ as we live in the modern world.

You seem to have a very limited perspective. At least from my viewpoint.

Both of individuals and of the church in regards to stewardship of resources.

Regards,
MG

Blah, blah, blah more talking about me.

See you around, Res Ipsa.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Thanks, Huck. Stepping out of the context of COJCOLDS accumulation of wealth, I think that belief in Jesus as God requires wrestling with some hard problems. Although I don’t pretend to have any expertise on the subject, apocalyptic Jewish preacher seem to me most consistent with the words attributed to him. The notion that his disciples would not get their reward in heaven until over 2000 years has passed doesn’t, in my opinion, fit with the feeling of urgency in his message. Drop everything, including your family, and follow me (whatever that means) isn’t sustainable for anything close to 2000 years.

I don’t consider Jesus divine, and I don’t claim to be a disciple or follower. That puts him in that large category of people I use as resources to help me be a good person. If I believed he was God? I imagine I’d try my best to follow what he taught to his disciples and simply trust him to know me and be my judge. That’s pretty much what I see Christians I’ve had these kind of discussions do in their daily lives.

What I tend to push back on is people who try to rationalize doing things that are contrary to Jesus’ words. Prosperity gospel preachers, for example. 7th Mountain Dominionist Type sects for another example.

I’m going to push back on your example of the rich man. That’s one of the most rationalized away of Jesus’ teachings. There is nothing in the text that indicates this was special teachings for one guy or a limited audience. What he said is consistent with the attitude he expresses about wealth and worldly riches throughout the gospels. I think it’s perfectly fine to have aspirational goals that one cannot meet. My objection is inventing rationalizations to validate the shortcomings as being Christlike.

I dunno if that’s an adequate response to your comments. If not, let me know and I’ll take another shot.

Bump, to get around mg's trolling...