The Many-Transfigurations theory

[Physics Guy]

Oh, I know that quote is in the Hadith. It's the idea that Muhammed used those words when he was shrugging his shoulders about picking a successor that's screwy.

Yeah, that's probably right. That saying in full might imply an indifference, by omission, but that's at most arguable, and it's probably not fair to take the first line, which I quoted, as an Alexander-like abdication.

On the other hand, Muhammad had so much authority in his final years that it seems as though he could surely have made his successor perfectly clear, if he had really wanted to do that. And yet the successor who did emerge did so with the claim to have been elected by the faithful after Muhammad's death, not to have been designated by Muhammad. So it seems like a reasonable deduction that Muhammad wasn't all that concerned about exactly who carried on after him. Maybe he had preferences, but if they had been really serious then he could have enforced them, and he didn't.

At any rate I think that's the reasoning of scholars who use that one quote as a symbol for Muhammad's insufficiently strong succession preference. Clearly Shias have a different take on the matter. My limited impression is that they don't so much dispute the weight of those arguments as rely on outweighing them with explicit endorsements of Ali by Muhammad, while Sunnis deny that Muhammad ever gave such endorsements.

The relevance I see to the Mormon analog is a support for Kishkumen's point that there was not actually any need for a miracle of transfiguration to establish Young's succession. "We picked a successor and he worked out okay" has been good enough for Sunni Islam, so it should be good enough for the LDS church.

[Moksha]

Would it be better to refer to the stories surrounding the LDS succession issue as a ploy or a ruse? The word ruse would lend a connection to Tim Ballard. Res Ipsa or Consiglieri could discern the best choice based on their legal experience.

[Morley]

Oh, I know that quote is in the Hadith. It's the idea that Muhammed used those words when he was shrugging his shoulders about picking a successor that's screwy.

Yeah, that's probably right. That saying in full might imply an indifference, by omission, but that's at most arguable, and it's probably not fair to take the first line, which I quoted, as an Alexander-like abdication.

On the other hand, Muhammad had so much authority in his final years that it seems as though he could surely have made his successor perfectly clear, if he had really wanted to do that. And yet the successor who did emerge did so with the claim to have been elected by the faithful after Muhammad's death, not to have been designated by Muhammad. So it seems like a reasonable deduction that Muhammad wasn't all that concerned about exactly who carried on after him. Maybe he had preferences, but if they had been really serious then he could have enforced them, and he didn't.

At any rate I think that's the reasoning of scholars who use that one quote as a symbol for Muhammad's insufficiently strong succession preference. Clearly Shias have a different take on the matter. My limited impression is that they don't so much dispute the weight of those arguments as rely on outweighing them with explicit endorsements of Ali by Muhammad, while Sunnis deny that Muhammad ever gave such endorsements.

The relevance I see to the Mormon analog is a support for Kishkumen's point that there was not actually any need for a miracle of transfiguration to establish Young's succession. "We picked a successor and he worked out okay" has been good enough for Sunni Islam, so it should be good enough for the LDS church.

Well said as always.

Forgive my whinging about the neglect of the Shi'ite point of view.

[High Spy]

Would it be better to refer to the stories surrounding the LDS succession issue as a ploy or a ruse? The word ruse would lend a connection to Tim Ballard. Res Ipsa or Consiglieri could discern the best choice based on their legal experience.

Evil incarnate

Or Spawn of Satan.

[Kishkumen]

You make a sober case Reverend. DCP, Snuffer, Mormon bloggers, and others I've glanced at since you started the thread definitely aren't giving us the mature picture that you are.

My only quibble is that what you're saying amounts to Joseph having all the fun, and then passing down the lifeless bureaucracy that is the Church today to perpetuate until the end times. Miracles ceased just as they were getting started. But I think you are right that Joseph did everything that he intended to do to move the kingdom forward after he left. Now, this is the first time I've ever had this thought, but I think what you're saying is Joseph didn't set apart an explicit successor because -- well, how could he, the greatest thing in the world even greater than Christ, be followed up by anybody? That would be like asking who the successor to Donald Trump is. Donald Trump made America great, and after he's gone, Republicans can keep things going as he designated while deferring to his name evermore.

If that's the case, then the transfiguration has importance in the sense of perpetuating the magic of Joseph Smith -- the person who not only held the keys, but then never left a locked door unopened.

I think there is evidence that Smith had dynastic plans, and the LDS Church has respected them to a degree by having a number of Smith presidents and people related to the Smiths as president. The importance of the dynasty was also evident in the Church patriarchy that was abolished in the ‘80s.

Brigham knew that a son of Joseph Smith might come out West to take his “rightful place” among the saints, and he is quoted as saying so. Of course, doubtless he would have held onto power and continued trying to set up his own dynasty, which he was clearly doing by making his sons apostles, even one, I think, who was not part of the Q12. I am fuzzy on the details, as it has been years since I put any research into this issue.

Dynasty was important in Early Mormonism. Continuing nepotism therein is a testament to its past importance. In my opinion, Eldred G.Smith understood the LDS Gospel better than some presidents of the Church, so it is easy to see how a Smith patriarch with real knowledge could be a threat to the apostolic order.

[Physics Guy]

Forgive my whinging about the neglect of the Shi'ite point of view.

It was an important point and I'm glad you raised it. Although Muhammad probably didn't do as much as he could have done to ensure a particular successor, it's by no means clear that he explicitly disavowed any interest in the issue, the way my out-of-context single line seemed to indicate. And since this issue led to centuries of conflict in a big world religion, it's not good for anyone to casually misrepresent it, even in discussions that aren't directly about it. Your comments made me spend enough time refreshing the faded memories of my limited reading that I hopefully won't do that again. So I'm grateful.

[Fence Sitter]

I think there is evidence that Smith had dynastic plans, and the LDS Church has respected them to a degree by having a number of Smith presidents and people related to the Smiths as president. The importance of the dynasty was also evident in the Church patriarchy that was abolished in the ‘80s.

Brigham knew that a son of Joseph Smith might come out West to take his “rightful place” among the saints, and he is quoted as saying so. Of course, doubtless he would have held onto power and continued trying to set up his own dynasty, which he was clearly doing by making his sons apostles, even one, I think, who was not part of the Q12. I am fuzzy on the details, as it has been years since I put any research into this issue.

Dynasty was important in Early Mormonism. Continuing nepotism therein is a testament to its past importance. In my opinion, Eldred G.Smith understood the LDS Gospel better than some presidents of the Church, so it is easy to see how a Smith patriarch with real knowledge could be a threat to the apostolic order.

Brigham Young had three of his sons ordained as apostles. With the obvious intent of placing him in a position to eventually take over the church, Brigham had his son John Willard Young ordained an apostle when he was only 11 in 1855. 2 other sons, Brigham Young Jr. and Joseph Angell Young, were also ordained apostles later on. None of the three became part of the quorum of the 12 when they were made apostles though later on Brigham Young Jr was eventually part of the 12. When Franklin Richards died in 1899 John Willard Young became the second most senior apostle at the age of 55, 2nd only to the current prophet Lorenzo Snow. John Willard preferred to live in NYC where he engaged in numerous failed business ventures and incurred large amounts of debt. Shortly after Franklin Richards died, the quorum of the 12 and the 1st presidency changed the policy of presidential succession so that the next president would be the apostle who had served longest in the quorum of the 12 excluding John Willard from being the next president.

[Moksha]

Shortly after Franklin Richards died, the quorum of the 12 and the 1st presidency changed the policy of presidential succession so that the next president would be the apostle who had served longest in the quorum of the 12 excluding John Willard from being the next president.

An example of perfidious dealings and wise business decisions sometimes being the same.

[Kishkumen]

Brigham Young had three of his sons ordained as apostles. With the obvious intent of placing him in a position to eventually take over the church, Brigham had his son John Willard Young ordained an apostle when he was only 11 in 1855. 2 other sons, Brigham Young Jr. and Joseph Angell Young, were also ordained apostles later on. None of the three became part of the quorum of the 12 when they were made apostles though later on Brigham Young Jr was eventually part of the 12. When Franklin Richards died in 1899 John Willard Young became the second most senior apostle at the age of 55, 2nd only to the current prophet Lorenzo Snow. John Willard preferred to live in NYC where he engaged in numerous failed business ventures and incurred large amounts of debt. Shortly after Franklin Richards died, the quorum of the 12 and the 1st presidency changed the policy of presidential succession so that the next president would be the apostle who had served longest in the quorum of the 12 excluding John Willard from being the next president.

Thanks for taking the time to share your detailed knowledge, Fence Sitter. It is breathtaking how aggressive Young was in his bid to capture the church for his family. I am glad he failed. Nemo’s new video on Nelson’s bid to reverse or outdo Hinckley is fascinating. That bid seems to have been borne of genuine animus between them when Hinckley was alive. Not what one hopes to see in a prophet, but there it is.

[Moksha]

That bid seems to have been borne of genuine animus between them when Hinckley was alive. Not what one hopes to see in a prophet, but there it is.

Perhaps if a Conference goer squinted hard at the time, they could see Elder Nelson's face take on the countenance of an angry Bruce R. McConkie and even imagine a fiery meteor plunging from the sky and landing on President Hinckley, with a whale swallowing Nelson and holding him safe until the conflagration died out.