Scott Gordon explains away the SEC fines

[drumdude]

Let's move on to the topic of church finances. The most important thing to remember about this topic is that critics are looking for ways to make the church look bad so everything is from that perspective.

With that in mind mind let's look at the claim. There are several different approaches to this and so I'm going to try and put them together in an amalgamation. So the claim from the Internet is the church is bad. The church was hiding their money from the government and not paying their fair share of taxes. They were misusing them. They are misusing the money to buy malls, shopping centers, vacation homes, office Buildings, and private jets. While they let poor people starve. The United States government forced the church to pay a fine so this proves the church was wrong and they're bad.

Is this a fair claim? Well the government did make the church pay a fine because they felt that the paperwork wasn't filled out properly. That part is true. But in the United States the churches don't pay any taxes, so how they filled out the government paperwork made no financial difference to the church at all.

Secondly all of the money was reported to the government. The professionals and attorneys who the church hired to manage their finances were using a method that's very popular with many businesses. They divided the money into smaller divisions or corporations and reported each one separately, each on a different form. Then they turned in all of the forms. Did they make any additional money by doing it this way? Nope. Did they pay less in taxes by doing it this way? No.

As I said churches don't pay taxes in the United States. Did they use the money to pay for jets or houses? No. There was no hidden money. Tt was all reported, um, and besides that the church doesn't do things like that. Those of us and those people who work for the church knows the church doesn't spend money on frivolous things. Did they hide the money from the government? Again no all the forms were turned in. All of the money was reported. It was simply a way to organize Church Investments.

What did happen was the professionals that did the paperwork were sloppy and they had people signing the paperwork that probably should not have been. The government didn't like that because of the potential for fraud. Which didn't happen in the church's case but the government likes to be consistent. And they wanted to to protect against fraud. All the money was there. All the money was reported. All the money was properly invested. There was no fraud but the forms were improperly completed.

Remember the church leaders did not fill out the paperwork that was done by Financial professionals at the government's request. The church Financial professionals changed how they did the paperwork and switched to reporting all the Investments using only one form with the proper people or proper person signing it. But if it made no Financial difference why why did the church use multiple corporations and multiple forms? That sounds illegal. It isn't illegal. In fact many companies use this method today. Some companies use this method to put their investments into groups that have things in common. For example real estate investments.

In one stock investments, in another or they separate the types of businesses. Google does this as do many other large corporations. Others have used this method for Geographic reasons, one Corporation for business in the United States a separate uh Corporation for business in Europe. The Catholic church in the United States uses separate organizations for their finances based on location. They use different corporations all through the United States.

In our case the government had the church pay a fine. What they paid is a lot of money for us but it was the lowest level level of fine. It was the lowest percentage that was available to the people who charged the fines. Many people including non-LDS businessmen uh were surprised there was a fine at all. And some argued in various news articles they argued the church should protest and refuse to pay. The church did not protest they simply paid the fine and moved on. Why did the government charge a fine? As I said the paperwork was filled out out improperly and there was a potential for others, not the church, but others to take advantage of doing things like this.

The government wanted to set an example that that people should be very careful in their paperwork. Nobody was arrested, nobody lost their license to practice law, nobody lost their license to do accounting. This was all about paperwork. Nobody at the church got any additional money with either method reporting the investment. Advisers did not get more commission, the Brethren did not get richer, nobody got a large house or private jet. So why is this such a big deal?

This is where how you feel about the church influences what you think about this issue. The internet influencers see nefarious purposes and believe the church leaders are trying to hoard large piles of cash and are investing in improper things. I can tell you that isn't true. The church is meticulous about every dollar spent. Just talk to your stake auditor or your and and you'll find out they're very careful about every dollar they spend. The investment advisors we do have help on this though because

The investment advisors for the church have publicly stated why they use separate corporations. They did it to appear like the church had less money. Well why would they do that? There are several possible reasons. First we had an incident of missionaries being kidnapped for ransom in Soviet Russia. I'm sure they don't want that to happen again. We have missionaries and church leaders going all over the world and sometimes into unsafe areas. Secondly they tell us they did not want the members of the church to follow their investment strategy. Too many members might believe the investment strategy was inspired by a revelation from the prophet so they should follow it. Church Investments are turned over to investment professionals the church has a much longer time Horizon than most people do with their Investments. You might be investing for your retirement which is 20 years away the church is investing to get ready for the second coming of Christ which might be a hundred years away. So copying the church's investment strategy is not appropriate for most people.

The third reason they were using this method is the church was concerned that critics would argue the church did not need the money or was spending the money in the wrong way. Well they were correct it is true that the church has a large endowment of money. It means they have a lot of money. That has not always been the case but we also operate a large University system a large missionary system a large church with 17 million people and provide much needed humanitarian Aid. Other universities in the United States also have large endowments like this and if we just take the total Church endowment and compare it with the endowments of of other universities Harvard Yale some of the other universities what we discover is those universities have more money per student than the church has. And the church has its other other uh missions to accomplish like missionary work and running Church buildings and building temples. According to ex Financials, I should say several non-latter-day Saint Financial experts, have stated in various news articles that the amount of money the church has is not out of line with what it does. And the amount of money the church spends as a percentage is similar about the same as what other non-religious Charities spend.

So the two main online arguments I see are the church is dishonest because some employees filled out the paperwork wrong or the church church does not spend the money in the way the critics think it should spent. But there's nothing evil or bad here. We have to remember in this claim like many others online influencers often simply want clicks on their online videos. The more outrageous the claim the more clicks they get and the more money they make. I personally know one video influencer who's a Critic of the church who makes well over $200,000 per year by spreading many false claims. I'm sure what's going to happen here is somebody's going to say oh I found a new business model brother Gordon said I should go and make movies about the church that are false but what this man does is he just makes sure each claim is as controversial as possible just to maximize his clicks. Elder M Russell Ballard has said Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God's true prophets and who actively prey on others they rely on sophistry or deceit to deceive and entice others to their views. They set themselves up for a light under the world and they may get and that they may get gain and praise of the world.

It's a masterpiece of apologetics. The strawmen are meticulously set up and knocked down. The damning facts are minimized and framed in the smallest way possible. And when Scott runs into the elephant in the room - the fact that the church admitted to unlawfully hiding money to further their own self interest - he comes up with 3 excuses.

1) Missionaries' lives were in danger! If people knew the church was rich they'd kidnap missionaries!
2) Mormon members' retirements were in danger! If people knew the church was rich, Mormons might "copycat invest!"
3) Mormonism's reputation was in danger! If people knew the church was rich, critics might point out that the church has a lot of money!

So you see, the church had a ton of good reasons for this - all of them completely noble, even praiseworthy!

Absolutely insane that Scott could give this talk with a straight face. I guess it helped that he only had to speak these words to a room full of 8-9 people who didn't speak English...

Link to his talk:

https://www.youtube.com/live/KdoVAOZ7cUs?t=23176s

[Fence Sitter]

What did happen was the professionals that did the paperwork were sloppy and they had people signing the paperwork that probably should not have been.

and then a few paragraphs later he argues just the opposite:

The church is meticulous about every dollar spent.

His bishop ought to demand to see actual bank statements at Gordon's tithing settlement.

What a crock! The Church was hiding its money from its own members so they would continue to pay tithing.

[Rivendale]

People who were chosen to be ghost managers of the shell companies were people who had little or no social media accounts and generic names.Two managers at ensign peak quit after discovering they were signing fraudulent reports and were merely replaced. The SEC report makes it clear the leadership went through great lengths to hide the investments. What extra precautions are taken currently for missionaries to thwart kidnapping attempts? Who was fired for doing sloppy paperwork?

[Marcus]

Wow. That was an incredibly disingenuous and dishonest statement by Gordon.

But it makes sense why the lds church would let apologists do this. If an official church rep or lds church lawyer posted something like that, i am sure sanctions would be in order.

in my opinion, this is more evidence that this is why they keep mopologists around the periphery. They do the dirty work but the lds church can instantly disavow them if something goes wrong. What an ugly job to have.

[Doctor Steuss]

Someone will need to remind me how many LDS missionaries have been kidnapped since February 21, 2023.

[drumdude]

Someone will need to remind me how many LDS missionaries have been kidnapped since February 21, 2023.

Kidnappers just assumed the Mormon church was broke before these pesky SEC fines. It’s open season now, God help them.

[Gadianton]

Since Scott's audience already believe the Church can do no wrong, it doesn't really matter and the talk wasn't necessary.

But in the United States the churches don't pay any taxes, so how they filled out the government paperwork made no financial difference to the church at all.

The rabbit hole goes deep into interplay between the tax-exempt side and that taxed side. Yes, the Church pays taxes because for the most part, it's not a church, but a business empire. It would take Scott at least 10 hours of study to grasp the basics, there is no incentive to, and so might as well "let's move on" as he said because you can't say much to a sheep that loves getting sheared.

[drumdude]

Selected quotes from in the official SEC report:

To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency.
​
On March 15, 2005, the Church became aware that the public might link this first LLC to the Church because the person signing the Forms 13F was listed in a public directory as a Church employee. To address this issue, on March 21, 2005, the senior leadership of the Church approved a new reporting entity to be created with “better care being taken to ensure that neither the ‘Street’ nor the media [could] connect the new entity to Ensign Peak.”
​
In 2015, Ensign Peak became aware that a third party appeared to have connected the holdings of various LLCs back to Ensign Peak. Ensign Peak brought this issue to the attention of the Church. The senior leadership of the Church approved Ensign Peak’s recommendation to “gradually and carefully adapt Ensign Peak’s corporate structure to strengthen the portfolio’s confidentiality.”
​
Ensign Peak was responsible for designating the Clone LLCs’ Business Managers, many of whom were Church employees. Business Managers were selected because they had common names and a limited presence on social media, and were therefore less likely to be publicly connected to Ensign Peak or the Church. Ensign Peak provided the Business Managers very limited information about the Clone LLCs or why they were created.
​
Each Clone LLC was given an address outside of Utah although none of them conducted any business at those locations other than the receipt of mail. Ensign Peak chose multiple locations across the country for these purported offices to create the impression that the Clone LLCs conducted business operations throughout the U.S., making it more difficult to trace the Clone LLCs back to Ensign Peak or the Church.

Scott Gordon read this and said “Hold my non-alcoholic beer while I frame this as a paperwork typo.”

Also it’s clear that he’s referring to John Dehlin on the last part. I don’t know why he keeps claiming to know Dehlin, when in 2016 John had this to say:

In your presentation you claim to “know me personally, and to have had many conversations with me.” Other than our UVU debate (wherein we did not speak in person in any substantive way), and a few email exchanges, can you please list for me/us the dates/times/locations where you and I have had any meaningful discussions face to face – in a personal way? I remember saying “Hello” to you at a few conferences, I remember a few email exchanges, but I do not ever recall a lunch, or a meeting, or any appointment of any kind that would provide you with enough justification for claiming to know me “personally.” Please share. Otherwise, your claims to “know me personally” come off to me as deceptive…and manipulative….and disingenuous — as if you were trying to mislead your audiences into thinking that you knew/know me better than you really did/do.
for what it's worth, if you knew me personally, you would never had made the statement that I “have long believed that there is no God.” Just ask those who know me…personally. Perhaps my faith in God has wavered/fluctuated at times — perhaps I lost a belief in an anthropomorphic God — perhaps I admit that I do not “know” there is a God — but to this day I maintain hope that there is a God and/or an afterlife…even though I have made peace with the possibility that there is no God or afterlife. This has been my position on God for many, many years.

Regardless, what type of person runs around the world smearing people because of their occasional doubts, while conveniently and intentionally ignoring evidence of their professed belief? Shouldn’t such disingenuous smears simply be off the table for someone who professes to be a disciple of Christ…or even a decent human being? These types of tactics are beneath you, Scott Gordon.

When will Gordon stop lying for the lord?

[Philo Sofee]

Selected quotes from in the official SEC report:

To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency.
​
On March 15, 2005, the Church became aware that the public might link this first LLC to the Church because the person signing the Forms 13F was listed in a public directory as a Church employee. To address this issue, on March 21, 2005, the senior leadership of the Church approved a new reporting entity to be created with “better care being taken to ensure that neither the ‘Street’ nor the media [could] connect the new entity to Ensign Peak.”
​
In 2015, Ensign Peak became aware that a third party appeared to have connected the holdings of various LLCs back to Ensign Peak. Ensign Peak brought this issue to the attention of the Church. The senior leadership of the Church approved Ensign Peak’s recommendation to “gradually and carefully adapt Ensign Peak’s corporate structure to strengthen the portfolio’s confidentiality.”
​
Ensign Peak was responsible for designating the Clone LLCs’ Business Managers, many of whom were Church employees. Business Managers were selected because they had common names and a limited presence on social media, and were therefore less likely to be publicly connected to Ensign Peak or the Church. Ensign Peak provided the Business Managers very limited information about the Clone LLCs or why they were created.
​
Each Clone LLC was given an address outside of Utah although none of them conducted any business at those locations other than the receipt of mail. Ensign Peak chose multiple locations across the country for these purported offices to create the impression that the Clone LLCs conducted business operations throughout the U.S., making it more difficult to trace the Clone LLCs back to Ensign Peak or the Church.

Scott Gordon read this and said “Hold my non-alcoholic beer while I frame this as a paperwork typo.”

Also it’s clear that he’s referring to John Dehlin on the last part. I don’t know why he keeps claiming to know Dehlin, when in 2016 John had this to say:

In your presentation you claim to “know me personally, and to have had many conversations with me.” Other than our UVU debate (wherein we did not speak in person in any substantive way), and a few email exchanges, can you please list for me/us the dates/times/locations where you and I have had any meaningful discussions face to face – in a personal way? I remember saying “Hello” to you at a few conferences, I remember a few email exchanges, but I do not ever recall a lunch, or a meeting, or any appointment of any kind that would provide you with enough justification for claiming to know me “personally.” Please share. Otherwise, your claims to “know me personally” come off to me as deceptive…and manipulative….and disingenuous — as if you were trying to mislead your audiences into thinking that you knew/know me better than you really did/do.

for what it's worth, if you knew me personally, you would never had made the statement that I “have long believed that there is no God.” Just ask those who know me…personally. Perhaps my faith in God has wavered/fluctuated at times — perhaps I lost a belief in an anthropomorphic God — perhaps I admit that I do not “know” there is a God — but to this day I maintain hope that there is a God and/or an afterlife…even though I have made peace with the possibility that there is no God or afterlife. This has been my position on God for many, many years.

Regardless, what type of person runs around the world smearing people because of their occasional doubts, while conveniently and intentionally ignoring evidence of their professed belief? Shouldn’t such disingenuous smears simply be off the table for someone who professes to be a disciple of Christ…or even a decent human being? These types of tactics are beneath you, Scott Gordon.

When will Gordon stop lying for the lord?

When the Holy Ghost opens his mind to reality......

[Dr Moore]

Perjury on federal securities documents is fraud.