Can Atheists appreciate Johann Sebastian Bach?

[Philo Sofee]

Surely not! We know that human beings can compose music, much of it very good. Bach was, in the context of his time, extremely good.

Why on earth should that be felt to point to the existence of some other non-human entity?

Believers are prone to seeing their particular God’s hand in a variety of things. For instance, they will see their God’s hand in Bach, but they won’t see it in The Sex Pistols.

Metallica? Come on man..... God has to be inspiring them......

[Morley]

Morley: . . . a middle-aged board moderator into Perfume might actually find the Brandenburg Concertos to be ugly.

??? Whence the cheap shot?

Apologies. You seem to be pretty thick-skinned and self aware, so I didn't think you'd take offense.

But you're right, I should have substituted my own preferences: "...or a septuagenarian crap-poster into Lukas Nelson and Questlove."

The difference is that you're an icon whom everyone knows and loves, and the reference to my own tastes would've gone unrecognized and under appreciated.

[Gadianton]

It looks like someone has a part two to their list of historical composers who were Christians. Of course he brings up Wagner. Sure, somebody on the internet, Wagner is a great example of a Christian. That's the selective reading of the year for sure. Definitely more than a Christian, he was a German Nationalist. Might that count as "Christian" in tone for this person? Lets face it, Nazism was a big hit for Christian Nationalists in the United States. The German-American Bund was culturally identical to Mormonism. This person on the Internet shows no familiarity with composers outside of a very tight cluster. It's possible he's never referenced Shostakovich simply because this person has never heard his music. But that would be because Shostakovich superficially goes with Stalin as Wagner goes with Hitler or Christianity. And in the Christian Nationalist view, while Hitler was wrong on a lot of things, he's still redeemable, isn't that right, someone? But Shostakovich would have been afflicted with nationalism of a communist, atheist state. His music can't be good.

Though he's never listened to it, he could never like or endorse Shostakovich on basic ideological grounds, although, he'd have a bevy of unrelated excuses as to why Shostakovich has never been mentioned by him on his blog. But I guarantee they will reduce to ideological prejudice. Some of this person's historical composers are accessible to the average person, like Bach and Beethoven. Some of them are not, and this person would only have listened to them on ideological grounds only, while neglecting a 20th Century master like Shostakovich on the same grounds. He lives in a static world that he's coopted the best parts of for his faith that musically, has produced Michael Mclean and Janice Kapp Perry.

[huckelberry]

Surely not! We know that human beings can compose music, much of it very good. Bach was, in the context of his time, extremely good.

Why on earth should that be felt to point to the existence of some other non-human entity?

Believers are prone to seeing their particular God’s hand in a variety of things. For instance, they will see their God’s hand in Bach, but they won’t see it in The Sex Pistols.

It had not crossed my mind to think of God being involved in the composition of the music. I was thinking Bach composed it. I do not see any reason to question Bach being the composer and his mind, imagination, skill, and knowledge being the means.

Oh I left out the physical reality of the available musical instruments and what those devices were capable of doing. Then there is the skill traditions of people who play the instruments. These too would be critical components of the creation of new music.

[Marcus]

Huckelberry: Bach points to God. All beauty points to God.

Morley: Given how culturally laden both tastes in music and concepts of beauty are, this is troubling. A teenaged girl into BTS or a middle-aged board moderator into Perfume might actually find the Brandenburg Concertos to be ugly.

Does everyone's conception of beauty point to God? Is eveyone's observation of ugly pointing away?

Hi Morley, you are leaning into questions that I find difficult so I will start with an easy open.

All music is in itself a jumble of sound waves. It is in the ears and minds of listeners that it turns in to significant sound that communicates things. I find that I have to be in the right frame of thought to connect up with a particular music. Some familiarity with the style of music helps a lot to hear it. In truth I do not listen to Bach frequently. There have been time when hearing his music has been a great experience for me. Perhaps part of why I listen infrequently is that his music is a lot of work to listen to. Part of the reason is I do not feel a need to repeat the experience of Bach frequently.

I can see that the phrase "points to God" could be thought of as implying differing degrees of clarity. I admit to think of a pretty loose pointing. Bach church music associates with specific religious ideas. Clearly not everybody is going to hear those or care. Someone can be happy to hear beauty in all sorts of music without making conceptual associations with the idea of god.

I find myself unsure how to think about ugly in music. Well there is music played by people who have not yet learned how to play very well and make a mess of the notes. There is boring music, sort of an ugly idea. Then there is confrontational music. Thinking of Bach gave me an urge to listen to Rolling Stones Beggars Banquet, Sympathy for the Devil.

I might not be up to an explanation as to how that beauty points to God. Perhaps Jersey Girl knows. I have more difficulty knowing how to relate to Midnight Rambler. She posted a link to a terrific recent live version. I can't see it as ugly, should I somehow?

Perhaps all of us not yet dead are still pointing to God.

I understood your point right up until the last sentence. How is it that "all of us not yet dead" might be "still pointing to God"?

[huckelberry]

I find myself unsure how to think about ugly in music. Well there is music played by people who have not yet learned how to play very well and make a mess of the notes. There is boring music, sort of an ugly idea. Then there is confrontational music. Thinking of Bach gave me an urge to listen to Rolling Stones Beggars Banquet, Sympathy for the Devil.

I might not be up to an explanation as to how that beauty points to God. Perhaps Jersey Girl knows. I have more difficulty knowing how to relate to Midnight Rambler. She posted a link to a terrific recent live version. I can't see it as ugly, should I somehow?

Perhaps all of us not yet dead are still pointing to God.

I understood your point right up until the last sentence. How is it that "all of us not yet dead" might be "still pointing to God"?

I have long been unsure of how to respond to Morley's question about ugly. I remain a bit unsure.

Maybe I do not know about that last sentence. Something about Camus then I got tricked by a spirit from Leonard Cohen, Suzanne made me do it.

If it is ok to go back to this after an hour, I will try to be more upfront.

I think people standing up for themselves and others contains beauty. Ugliness is beauty deformed so with that idea people building themselves by harming others is a defacement of the beauty which is the image of God. Even in defacement a memory or remnant remains.

Perhaps the song Midnight Rambler gets away with ambiguity because it is theater.

[Doctor Scratch]

It looks like someone has a part two to their list of historical composers who were Christians. Of course he brings up Wagner. Sure, somebody on the internet, Wagner is a great example of a Christian. That's the selective reading of the year for sure. Definitely more than a Christian, he was a German Nationalist. Might that count as "Christian" in tone for this person? Lets face it, Nazism was a big hit for Christian Nationalists in the United States. The German-American Bund was culturally identical to Mormonism. This person on the Internet shows no familiarity with composers outside of a very tight cluster. It's possible he's never referenced Shostakovich simply because this person has never heard his music. But that would be because Shostakovich superficially goes with Stalin as Wagner goes with Hitler or Christianity. And in the Christian Nationalist view, while Hitler was wrong on a lot of things, he's still redeemable, isn't that right, someone? But Shostakovich would have been afflicted with nationalism of a communist, atheist state. His music can't be good.

Though he's never listened to it, he could never like or endorse Shostakovich on basic ideological grounds, although, he'd have a bevy of unrelated excuses as to why Shostakovich has never been mentioned by him on his blog. But I guarantee they will reduce to ideological prejudice. Some of this person's historical composers are accessible to the average person, like Bach and Beethoven. Some of them are not, and this person would only have listened to them on ideological grounds only, while neglecting a 20th Century master like Shostakovich on the same grounds. He lives in a static world that he's coopted the best parts of for his faith that musically, has produced Michael Mclean and Janice Kapp Perry.

Good points, Dr. Robbers. I didn't look that carefully, but are there *any* 20th Century composers on his list? I mean, if you have crusted-over, archaic tastes, then sure: it may be that you never even got as far as Debussy, so the argument that all the Great Composers were God-obsessed might be persuasive, I guess.

But I think there are more interesting questions that one might ask. For example, how many of these composers would have converted to Mormonism, if given the opportunity? I know that, in the mind of the Mopologists, the answer is, "All of them, because every knee will bend in the last days," etc., but that's not what I'm asking. I am wondering: how many of them would have joined during their lifetimes? If Wagner had been given a copy of the Book of Mormon, would he have signed up? And if he had, would it have destroyed his creative talents?

[Morley]

It looks like someone has a part two to their list of historical composers who were Christians. Of course he brings up Wagner. Sure, somebody on the internet, Wagner is a great example of a Christian. That's the selective reading of the year for sure. Definitely more than a Christian, he was a German Nationalist. Might that count as "Christian" in tone for this person? Lets face it, Nazism was a big hit for Christian Nationalists in the United States. The German-American Bund was culturally identical to Mormonism. This person on the Internet shows no familiarity with composers outside of a very tight cluster. It's possible he's never referenced Shostakovich simply because this person has never heard his music. But that would be because Shostakovich superficially goes with Stalin as Wagner goes with Hitler or Christianity. And in the Christian Nationalist view, while Hitler was wrong on a lot of things, he's still redeemable, isn't that right, someone? But Shostakovich would have been afflicted with nationalism of a communist, atheist state. His music can't be good.

Though he's never listened to it, he could never like or endorse Shostakovich on basic ideological grounds, although, he'd have a bevy of unrelated excuses as to why Shostakovich has never been mentioned by him on his blog. But I guarantee they will reduce to ideological prejudice. Some of this person's historical composers are accessible to the average person, like Bach and Beethoven. Some of them are not, and this person would only have listened to them on ideological grounds only, while neglecting a 20th Century master like Shostakovich on the same grounds. He lives in a static world that he's coopted the best parts of for his faith that musically, has produced Michael Mclean and Janice Kapp Perry.

When they start dropping names of their favorite composers, I sometimes wonder how the proprietor and his ilk would categorize Arnold Schoenberg.


Richard Gerstl, Portrait of Arnold Schoenberg (1905).


Is Schoenberg pointing to God with his dodecaphonic atonality?

Schoenberg meets all the implicit qualifications that one could ask for: Western European; Wagnerian; educated; possessing a solid, German-sounding name; and dead. And since no one really understands him, he'd be an excellent name to drop.

I have an aesthetic philosopher friend who has amassed a considerable amount of time learning to understand and appreciate Schoenberg. But every time he tortures me with one of his compositions, I find that I need to go home and cleanse my palate with a little Merle Haggard.

[huckelberry]

Is Schoenberg pointing to God with his dodecaphonic atonality?

Schoenberg meets all the implicit qualifications that one could ask for: Western European; Wagnerian; educated; possessing a solid, German-sounding name; and dead. And since no one really understands him, he'd be an excellent name to drop.

I have an aesthetic philosopher friend who has amassed a considerable amount of time learning to understand and appreciate Schoenberg. But every time he tortures me with one of his compositions, I find that I need to go home and cleanse my palate with a little Merle Haggard.

I find myself enjoying your little story of a Merle Haggard response. I can't do much better with Schoenberg in my mind.

[Morley]

But I think there are more interesting questions that one might ask. For example, how many of these composers would have converted to Mormonism, if given the opportunity? I know that, in the mind of the Mopologists, the answer is, "All of them, because every knee will bend in the last days," etc., but that's not what I'm asking. I am wondering: how many of them would have joined during their lifetimes? If Wagner had been given a copy of the Book of Mormon, would he have signed up? And if he had, would it have destroyed his creative talents?

My God, I would hope he would have joined.

The only way Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen could have been better would have been to reimagine it based around Book of Mormon characters.