Joseph Smith Jr the Mythmaker

[IWMP]

Welcome to the board Esaias. When you say you have an outsider's perspective, do you mean to say that you've never been Mormon, or that you are an ex-Mormon and hence on the outside now?

Cat's out of the bag I'm an ex-mo. Family is still Mormon hence the interest. I haven't gone to church in over a decade so I am far removed from Mormon, but the intellectual interest is still there. I love what we used to call deep doctrine, like the one where we all participated in the creation in the pre-existence. I don't see that written anywhere but I remember it from childhood.

People seem to go atheist or evangelical when they leave. I went more agnostic mystic. I like science, evolution, quantum mysteries. I see and feel auras, astral project, get in people's dreams, and portal. I have the magical experiences, now its just a matter of making sense of them. They seem to fit so nicely into religion don't they, but beware of what Robert Lifton calls mystical manipulation. It all means the church is true doesn't it? What if it's all part of nature and needs to be studied scientifically? I like that approach. I think Smith fits the charismatic mystic fortune teller archetype, and this pops up in society all the time. I compare with my own experiences. How is he better than me? Mystic contest. Mysticism is the realm of dreams. In that sense everyone is a mystic somewhat. I'm particularly interested in Jr.s practice of magic and his successes and failures. Magicians use slight of hand, deception. He seemed to have no qualm about lying. Or covering up information. Perhaps there were no plates. he lied. Does this mean he doesn't have any psychic or spiritual ability? No. That's the problem these psychics don't have to be ethical. I think his money digging was his form of water witching. So they didn't hit water so to speak. No money. He probably had a lot of successful tries as well.

I've heard warnings about utilizing your spiritual powers for self aggrandizement on the path to guru hood. The pursuit of siddhis. Controlling others with them. Smith may not have been warned. Typical grandiose megalomania. The Rameumptom is my favorite story, with each Mormon going up there on testimony meeting. God I am grateful that I am better than everyone else. We have the only truth.

I think we can warp anything we want to find a way to make things meld in a way that we want to believe works.

But are you trying to mould it because you want to go back to church? Because if you are 10 years out and agnostic then why does it matter if the church fits?

I find what you say interesting and look forward to hearing more.

[Fence Sitter]

I think his money digging was his form of water witching. So they didn't hit water so to speak. No money. He probably had a lot of successful tries as well.

AFIK, Smith didn't have a single successful money digging event where he found money, though I suppose one could argue he did "earn" some money from the hapless farmers who hired him to dig. He even had another failed try at it in Salem, Mass. in 1836, long after the Book of Mormon was published and the church was organized.

[Gadianton]

I love what we used to call deep doctrine, like the one where we all participated in the creation in the pre-existence. I don't see that written anywhere but I remember it from childhood.

There are lots of these doctrines and some of them get talked about. I look back with fondness over deep doctrine and don't let the apologists get away with denying their part in Mormonism. Over at FAIR and Sic et Non, they will deny even ever hearing of ideas like this one in any fashion.

But I do believe that without many of these doctrines, there's little point in being part of the Church.

I've heard warnings about utilizing your spiritual powers for self aggrandizement on the path to guru hood.

Eh hum, yeah. So, if you really weren't aware, there are gurus raking in millions who will make a Trump pastor look honest. I don't know where you are on your "path", but don't ever pay anyone a dime for spiritual enlightenment.

There are also lots of apostate Mormon offshoots based on the mysteries in some way, you may even run into one or two on this forum.

For the sake of transparency, I do not believe there is anybody on the planet who wields actual "spiritual powers'. Of course, that language could be metaphorical for something else that I do believe happens in terms of personal betterment.

[Esaias]

I don't think there were actually Nephites and Lamanites, yet with a mystical liberal stretch I could still go to church as a believer in the myth.

If you don't think there were actually Nephites and Lamanites, then you aren't a believer in the myth.

By your definition not belief, but what I am saying is you can stretch those semantics with mental gymnastics. If you take all of the literal in the church and water it down to generalities, then in general I can believe in the symbolism of the myth. Think archetypes. That's what I meant by the church is more good than bad. I think it is like a scale with the Holy Ghost, it will tell you it's true if it is more true than false, in the most general sense. Generally, it motivates people to become of better character and stimulates evolution of the human race this way. I think nature smiles on evolution and gives them a thumbs up overall. Why would nature make them more true than other myths though? I think there is a lesson there regarding all mythology that we need to grow up and learn, that is the symbolism, not the literal, is the point. But then how watered down can you make this? No necessity of priesthood evens the field, the playing ground for all religion and philosophy. The only leg the church has to stand on.

[Esaias]

But are you trying to mould it because you want to go back to church? Because if you are 10 years out and agnostic then why does it matter if the church fits?

Not going back. I used to get physically ill when I was a kid from attending, I would get headaches every Sunday. I would skip church every chance I got. I think the vibe there isn't good for me. Too much in a box thinking. Not a good enough explanation for my own personal spiritual experiences, hence, not enough fulfilment. I have what are called kriyas, from transcendental meditation. There is no place for this in the church. I find it fascinating that what likely were originally kriya mudras and other gestures in the temple likely originate from actual real kriyas, kind of like they say yoga originated from spontaneous kriyas. So the temple ceremony is a form of kriya yoga. Many kriyas are hand gestures that manipulate energy but also are like signs for spirits to read, like gang signs, or military gestures, or baseball signs, secret passcodes. This energy effects other people. Star Wars tries to explain this visually in their mythology, the power of the force. Many painters of the renaissance era and stained glass artists depict holy people such as Jesus displaying kriyas. I think it's sad someone with natural kriyas or energy healing talents that they have developed are out of place, the only healing ritual allowed is anointing of oil. I just don't fit in, never have, and am not going to try.

[Esaias]

For the sake of transparency, I do not believe there is anybody on the planet who wields actual "spiritual powers'. Of course, that language could be metaphorical for something else that I do believe happens in terms of personal betterment.

Spiritual powers you have to be careful about semantics. Spiritual has no agreed on definition, and power could mean simply authority rather than something miraculous like levitating or psychic surgery. My personal experience with meditation is I notice more multidimensionally. I see how thought, dream, and locations are connected. I have somewhat of a 6th sense. I think the church encourages development of this by stressing the Holy Ghost, you have to still the mind, and be worthy of it. Of good character. Buddhism teaches a basic moral code of moderation, combined with regular meditation, pondering. I think you can come up with your own as long as it is ethical, catered to your own strengths and vices.

[IWMP]

When my mum had a collapsed lung she said she could sense things and strange things happened. Interestingly, others around her witnessed the same strange spiritual experiences. She said she had gained belief and understanding that she felt was a lot like Buddhism.

Her friend got a priest to see her because she was freaked out by the things she saw and the priest said my mum was very unwell. My mum said animals used to walk her to the shop and wait for her and walk her home. That she could read people's minds and dogs minds and dogs could read hers. She said people were nice to her face but thinking horrible things. It wasn't that she heard talking, she described it as "memes" ( this was before actual memes became a thing), like energy transfers.

I don't think that is spiritual gifts. She doesn't experience that now. Perhaps it's just low oxygen.

[High Spy]

So, then it's a myth, throw the baby out with the bath right? It's worthless! Not so is my argument.

Once upon a time a poll was posted that asked two simple questions, but rather than allow honest investigation, my poll was discombobulated. A recreation of it is at the link below.

https://slogbog.com/viewtopic.php?p=241 ... nald#p2417

The Spirit was supplied an opportunity to respond with a 7.3 magnitude earthquake?

And was said offer accepted?

People say they wish the Davidic Servant was around, but refuse to consider evidence of his appearance.

There’s timestamped posts at the link. Said servant also began filling a really big bathtub a.k.a. Lake Mead. Perhaps a few devastating demonstrations will wake people up.

(Nope, it’s sad but true)

[Moksha]

I am tSo, then it's a myth, throw the baby out with the bath right? It's worthless! Not so is my argument.

I have my own personal spiritual experiences that I am still seeking a scientific or in other words logical explanation for. I'm a spirit medium, and have experience with both the miraculous and also the deception involved working with other dimensions.

So one person's myth can be another person's spiritual experiences.

I feel certain that I am not the only one who regarded the Star Trek TNG's extraterrestrial-seeded-life episodes as revealed truth!!!

[Dr. Shades]

If you don't think there were actually Nephites and Lamanites, then you aren't a believer in the myth.

By your definition not belief, but what I am saying is you can stretch those semantics with mental gymnastics.

You can stretch any semantics with mental gymnastics. Why bother doing it with Mormonism’s as opposed to any other system’s?

If you take all of the literal in the church and water it down to generalities, then in general I can believe in the symbolism of the myth.

If you take the literal in any church and water it down to generalities, then in general you can believe in the symbolism of the myth. Why bother with Joseph Smith’s? Why not choose another, or just make up your own?