By your definition not belief, but what I am saying is you can stretch those semantics with mental gymnastics.
You can stretch any semantics with mental gymnastics. Why bother doing it with Mormonism’s as opposed to any other system’s?
If you take all of the literal in the church and water it down to generalities, then in general I can believe in the symbolism of the myth.
If you take the literal in any church and water it down to generalities, then in general you can believe in the symbolism of the myth. Why bother with Joseph Smith’s? Why not choose another, or just make up your own?
That is probably a question better directed at yourself considering you have been on here for longer than I have. Why bother running a Mormon discussion website? Why not rastafari or something? Like I said, I have Mormon family and I heard someone say once that Mormonism is a good case study for religion in general since it is still younger than other religions. What makes a religion tick? Mormonism has a lot of written history resources to draw from, then this can be compared like you said to other systems.
Looking outside the Mormon bubble at say for example the catholic cathedrals that took over a hundred years to build, it makes the Salt Lake temple look like a dwarf. Looking at other systems one can see a pattern. Mormonism isn't so unique. It's a hodge podge.
I've heard some really heartfelt testimonies that is another reason I have interest. People really devote there lives to this stuff. How could they if it was just children's tall tales? Mystical manipulation, any spiritual experience equates Joseph Smith is better than you and gets to boss you around with his priesthood, because it proves the church is true.
I do have my own myth, I am superstitious. I see synchronicities. I don't bow to any religion or authority for that matter. I think we have some examples of the danger of that. With Mormonism it is disappointing, because it seems so good until you see the flaws. Darn it! I so want it to be true! Then cling on for dear life until it is just obvious, ok, it is not as purported. Then what? Especially if you live in Utah, or worse a small Mormon town. What will people think of me as an apostate? Sometimes it's best just to move. Whole new life. Will this end in divorce? You mean I went to all this trouble, served a mission or other time suck calling, and its not true? Sheesh.
I was wondering this morning why the interest in Mormonism Why is it difficult to unconvert, and so much intellectual gymnastics has to take place, and such social stigma for someone in the Mormon culture bubble? Easy to get baptized, like a crab trap if you want to leave.
Now that I have introduced myself hopefully I have something worthy to say to the general public, that is who I consider the audience here, not just the regulars that frequent this board. I have my own ideas that I want to bounce off of others to see if they are flawed somehow, I'm a sincere truth seeker not just a cynic, though I try to include some witty humor since that is my personality, everything from a certain perspective can be laughed at.
I was a myth maker when I was a small child. So much so that I got in trouble at school, I think it was 4th grade for telling my tall tales. I would make up stuff with a thick plotline like getting kidnapped and that was the point where I went to far since the teacher feared for my safety. It was all lies, Hollywood script material.
I also have a gift of seeing visions, scrying on the walls, not a crystal ball per se but I see ghosts and shapeshifters all over the place, superimposing their imagery on the world around me, and sometimes in 3d, but it is ethereal, dreamy, not to be mistaken with the hard atomic matter realm. When I trance I can let the ghosts put on a show and it is with trickery, it is a hallucination, obviously, but the point is the message they are trying to convey, usually some teaching or prophecy. I also hang out with these same ghosts in 3d in dreams, kind of like virtual reality. We can meet on common ground. It is for this reason I agree with the Tibetan Book of the Dead that states there are bardos post earth life that are a series of good and bad dreams to sort out karma. I have dead friends going through this it seems.
So, I think I fall into the small percentage of soothsayers, prophets, and perhaps in some cases mental patients. With, me, my skepticism keeps me afloat from insanity. However, I think insanity is the side effect of a visionary, that is why I look at Joseph Smith's foibles, his bloopers, and I think, I get it man, same bs happens to me from the spirit realm. I'm still friends with Smith and his family, despite his male cliches and false prophecies and fantasylands.
David Hyrum Smith was a mental patient. Joseph Smith Sr was a visionary man, and then in the middle we have Jr, whose psychology we can see in the multigenerational context. Any shrink nowadays would rant about how he should take his meds. This would keep the visions at bay. And perhaps the megalomania.
So how is my own experience compared to Joseph Smith Jr.? It is not unique. It is like I said a percentage of the human population. So it's part of the human experience as a whole and that is why I say Mormonism is a sampling of this, a sampling of the human experience.
Why mythmaking? Like my tall tales, and other campfire storytellers, this happens all over history. Think of the campfire tales known as the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. Even the Koran perhaps fits here. The Book of Mormon is an apocryphal work. The only difference, it is only a couple hundred years old not a couple thousand or more. Same principle.
The mystical side? I think Jr was sincerely fooled. I don't think he was just a charlatan. I think he really was seeing visions, like I do. The ghosts give signs to prove they are real, prophecies being most common, but what I am learning about the spirit realms is all too often we have megalomania and bossyness. Obey. Then I can get more power, more pay, then I can show miracles. If you believe the holy lie, I'll give you the power to prophesy.
The ghosts also mess up. They are kind of dumb, and can be outsmarted in their trickery. They can't see the mortal realm that good but may know of it somewhat, and base their myth that they lead you along with on it. Can they get you to react. If so, they are in. Officially your guide, only, do you really want their guidance, is it in your best interest? I like referring to rock stars to keep it entertaining and their poetry, in the words of Spider One who says "Now who's the light and who is the Devil? You can't decide, so I'll be your guide". That's how they are. They are all wrong. Let me guide you archetype. Obey and I will show you sign after sign. Then, I may throw in some caveat, a dead giveaway. In the words of Henry Rollins, "I'm a Liar! A Liar!" So then you have a seeming paradox. I've shown you signs (ghost speaking) but yet I'm obviously wrong. What to do. Hmmmm.
The way out of this labyrinth is to compare with other lied to fools and see that this is nothing new. It's just like all the myths. All the witch doctor tales. You know, shaman and storyteller are synonyms. Another scripture, well I mean artistical, rendition of this is in the word of Les Claypool, the "fool who follows the fool". You found a medium lied to by a ghost, one fooled. Well, they always want to proselyte for more power, control, reign, should you follow them? It seems like the good spiritual traditions out there have all kinds of warnings about this. When you see the spirit realm it makes sense. It has all kinds of liars in it. Holy liars. Why? I don't have the answer but what I can say is that I get lied to a lot from visions and it is up to me to decipher the riddle. There is always some truth to it somewhere. So, I don't throw the baby out with the bath, I play along.
Ok, Yaweh, for example, Sure, the big bang happened. Then what? Oh you separated the light from the darkness, and it was all because of you right? Even though it is better to have judges than kings Allelu Jah Weh praise for ever and ever to your holy dictatorship. You see? I think the reign of Christ is a symbolic gullibility test. Hello people, I said already that a circle of judges is better, like the Norse Rune circle or Fairy ring or other archetypes, and you want a King huh, forever and ever, even though you want to be the king, a God?
Then what. There were no atoms in those days. For 300 yom (Hebrew for period of time, translated as "day" in the Old Testament). Well in English for 300 million years it was all subatomic energy. Then atoms formed. And so on. It is remarkable that the mythology of the Hebrews fits so snugly into the big bang theory, all the way up to sea creatures were created before land, the fossil record agrees! The Earth was a tropical Eden of sorts for millions of years, then man evolved, I meant was created. The final yom, period of time, could be a day, a month, a lightyear, an aeon. So, this I see as strong evidence in favor of the value of myth you see, despite my humor, how did Yaweh get the theory of evolution and the big bang right? If you had to explain it to kids, could you have done any better?
The ghost is trying to summarize, and has the disadvantage of being trapped in a dreamland that doesn't have the reality checks of the waking state. The ethereal realm has dragons in it. Unicorns, monsters. If you lived in it 24/7, how would you think it is any less real than the waking state? You have to deal with it day in and day out. One of my ghost friends says, "yeah you wake up, for me I live in this all the time, it is my reality", even though it is dream nonsensicalness.
So, the Book of Mormon and the theology following it is a dream. I went to Temple Square earlier this year, I saw Richard Elliot perform at noon on the Tabernacle oregon. Phenomenal, for any who haven't seen him he is world class. He is the general conference organist. He played something from like 400 A.D. some masterpiece nobody has heard of. He also dropped a pin and a nail to demonstrate the acoustics. Beside the point, as I moseyed over to the general conference center art display I found some of the illustrations that are included in the earlier (from my youth, my grandpa's generation) Book of Mormon. The stripling warriors. All those pics with people bearing steel swords like a medieval battle. Not macuahuitl, the actual swords they had. A dream, I thought. This looks like dream imagery. Then I saw horns on a picture. A viking dream! Smith was a viking. How cliché for the archetypal artwork to channel through as a helmet with horns. You now the Vikings were white people that have settlements in New England dating around 1000 A.D. As the Tibetan Book of the Dead briefly comments on, there are dream bardos! This is a dream bardo! So it is also an after life.
Maybe you really will meet Nephi there when you die. Like you may meet a leprechaun if you are Irish, you meet who captivated your soul, you reckon with them. You pass by all the gods and angels to your Atman-Brahman, your exaltation Atman meaning man or Atham in Hebrew, similar Hindi. Brahma meaning God. Adam-God, or Atham-Eloah in Hebrew. Union of man and the divine, which Buddha said is like ending up back at the beginning. Inevitable for all of us to end up as Gods and tricksters utilize the obvious inevitable and commonplace cliché to trick us. Well that goes without saying that we become gods that is where we came from! Smith's afterlife dominion of Lamanites and Nephites and dragons and fairies and trolls. And giants, were in the land in those, days. Watch out, one wants to eat you! Joktun! I think Smith's lineage had something to do with his dream imagery. So it is like a fairy tale, literally. I think Mormonism is crying from the dust, as a fairy wants you to believe it has wings! White people have fairies for ancestral gods. Though they may not know it, they likely have to face their ancestral deities in the dream realm afterlives.
With Mormonism, it is disappointing, because it seems so good until you see the flaws. Darn it! I so want it to be true! Then cling on for dear life until it is just obvious, ok, it is not as purported. Then what?
On the plus side, we have apologists and BYU scholars who could mount an impressive defense of Xenu and his volcanoes, together with compelling parallels from the Malleus Maleficarum.
Ok, for those that were Mormon and like myself, I don't know how to mix drinks, but I had some Jim Beams, mixed with O.J., now that is not an official drink, but for those who don't know bartending you would have to be very specific, you would have to say to the barkeep, ok, take 1 shot of Jim Beam authentic Bourbon Whiskey and mix it with no-pulp official O.J. from the store, I mean the good stuff, most expensive you can find. I have oranges growing outside my window just so you know, to put a straw in one of them. Mmmmm. I love O.J. Mixed with bourbon? Ok. Pause. You have to try it, no matter if the Word of Wisdom says you have to use strong drinks as the washing of the bodie, what about the stomach lining? Certainly it could utilize some disinfectant.
I have to say, for those who want to follow my story, I am living in my mission area currently, another reason to blog or dissuasion board about it. If I have something important for society to say then I hope I am not wasting your time. I hate reading useless information. Prove it. It brings up memories of my failed missionary attempt to convert others. I had little success. I didn't hardly make a difference. But I did meet people that made me think. Including pastors. I found people along the genre of mocking our potential inheritance that we can't become Gods because God is a Spirit even though no scripture is for private interpretation. That is a singular scripture and Psalm 85 says that we are indeed judges like Gods. Gods ourselves it could be said. Moses was a God to Aaron. Polytheism isn't so evil when you see it in context with history. It is most common, that we are all manifestations of the divine, and experiment.
Ok, for those that were Mormon and like myself, I don't know how to mix drinks, but I had some Jim Beams, mixed with O.J., now that is not an official drink, but for those who don't know bartending you would have to be very specific, you would have to say to the barkeep, ok, take 1 shot of Jim Beam authentic Bourbon Whiskey and mix it with no-pulp official O.J. from the store, I mean the good stuff, most expensive you can find. I have oranges growing outside my window just so you know, to put a straw in one of them. Mmmmm. I love O.J. Mixed with bourbon?
If you add in some grenadine, you've got what called a Ward 8. For whatever reason, the additional sugar, plus the pom/berry flavor really helps balance it out more-so than just a straight up bourbon screwdriver.
Ok. Pause. You have to try it, no matter if the Word of Wisdom says you have to use strong drinks as the washing of the bodie, what about the stomach lining? Certainly it could utilize some disinfectant.
For what it's worth, as far as medical science goes, there's no safe amount (nor healthy kind) of alcohol to consume. It's one of the few definitively known commonly consumed "foods" that increases a myriad of cancer risks (the other being delicious processed meats).
With Mormonism, it is disappointing, because it seems so good until you see the flaws. Darn it! I so want it to be true! Then cling on for dear life until it is just obvious, ok, it is not as purported. Then what?
On the plus side, we have apologists and BYU scholars who could mount an impressive defense of Xenu and his volcanoes, together with compelling parallels from the Malleus Maleficarum.
I went to Amsterdam once, and I saw this about Malleus Maleficarum. In the 1400s, anybody ugly, out of touch with society, or otherwise misfit may be classified as a witch and brought to the tribunal for inquisition. Most were tortured beyond repair even if not found guilty. I find this another study, I call it Malachi's prophesy, the curse part coming true. The Inquisition was based completely on racism. If is wasn't the Jewish god, then it's heresy and death penalty, especially if nocturnal emissions were a part. Did you have intercourse with the devil? Did you have any regular puberty dreams? Death penalty! Iron Maiden. Guillotine. I saw a real one and thumb screws in a torture museum in Amsterdam down the street from the Palace dating 1400s. You can't contact your ancestral gods of your father's (Malachi) only your adopted gods (saints and Abraham's impostor adoption family, racism, better than your family, he chose a hotter wife that you).
Guillotine. I saw a real one and thumb screws in a torture museum in Amsterdam down the street from the Palace dating 1400s.
Utah might have employed a guillotine rather than a firing squad for its blood atonement, but that would have meant employing a furriner to show them how it worked. We don't cotton to furriners unless they show a willingness to convert.
What is good and what is bad about mythmaking? Not only Joseph Smith Jr.'s but other tribal religions and dreamers out there. One of my favorite genre is the neo-hippy. Those people believe all kinds of weird nonsense. Aliens, Atlantis, an elevator shaft down Mt Shasta to an underworld, The fact that the word baphomet is pronounced wrong and baphomy I mean ahem blasphemy. A shapeshifter based on ancient Greek god Pan, modern myths and more ancient. A snake called grandmother that represents the Amazon river that visits in visions. A turtle that created the world.
Smith fulfilled an archetypal pattern of mythmaker, not different than any tribal medicine man or rain dancer. He had dreams and visions of native americans all throughout his youth. Told tall tales about them. Must have been enthralled with his starved farm boy imagination going haywire. The tribe in this case being a certain type of person, world view, of his era. Then 200 years later with much more historical data we try to cram the world view into a modern context and it doesn't fit. So then the adaptation of the myth. Will it survive the evolutionary process and adapt? Watered down to they are all true somewhat get the point not the literal. Might as well make up your own. I like the new agers for that reason. You are already God, why not make up a myth?
Esaias wrote:Why mythmaking? Like my tall tales, and other campfire storytellers, this happens all over history. Think of the campfire tales known as the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha.
Esaias wrote:I think he really was seeing visions, like I do. The ghosts give signs to prove they are real, prophecies being most common, but what I am learning about the spirit realms is all too often we have megalomania and bossyness.
I'm trying to understand if your post is an example of "mythmaking" or if you're reporting objectively?
(I also wonder if my question will push you in the direction of postmodernism, being forced to say that there is no such thing as objectivity and we're all mythmakers.)
Would you clarify the distinction by giving an example of one of your tall tales, and contrasting that with one of your objective reports?
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