Actual Ex-Mo Predators

[Marcus]

and so it is important to distinguish between real predators and victims, and those caught up in a kind of Münchausen syndrome where they pretend to be victims and falsely accuse others of being predators to win sympathy, attention, and notoriety.

This is a very problematic analysis. The victim's mindset is thoroughly 'understood' (not really, rather just assumed), but the predator's mindset is not even examined. The predator's mindset, based on their statements, is taken as is. The victim's mindset is not. Why is this bias being proposed as legitimate?

[Marcus]

...Regarding claims of sexual harassment, the US OED defines it as:

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person's sex. Harassment can include "sexual harassment" or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

You left off the relevant part.

harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

[drumdude]

...Regarding claims of sexual harassment, the US OED defines it as:

You left off the relevant part.

harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

Rosebud, in my opinion is right that Dehlin got off scott free because of a technicality.

Federal law, under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, does not protect employees from sexual harassment if their employer has fewer than 15 employees.

[huckelberry]

You left off the relevant part.

Rosebud, in my opinion is right that Dehlin got off scott free because of a technicality.

Federal law, under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, does not protect employees from sexual harassment if their employer has fewer than 15 employees.

drumdude, are you saying that Dehlin pursued rosebud with sexual requests that she denied and then she was fired because of those denials. You sound like that is what you mean.

But everything I have seen indicates the two of them mutually stumbled about a sort of affair which John decided was a mistake. He then realized he could not continue working with her so ended the employment. There appears to be a very high likelihood that there were multiple reasons for ending her employment, the sort of affair being only a part.

My temporary view is that they are both victims in some ways and both manipulators in some ways.

[Marcus]

...But everything I have seen indicates the two of them mutually stumbled about a sort of affair which John decided was a mistake. He then realized he could not continue working with her so ended the employment...

Ending someone's employment because of a sexual encounter with a superior is the very definition of sexual harassment in the workplace, huckelberry.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

No it doesn't. It makes it difficult to empathize, but it doesn't change the facts as you stated them. Describing that event as simply "Dehlin behaving poorly" is grossly inappropriate.

I think both of them acted very inappropriately. Rosebud’s plan to oust the head of Open Stories so she and John could seize control is very inappropriate to say the least. Imagine if John had agreed to it!

I would call ignoring the agency of Rosebud from beginning to end absolutely nuts. But that is what we see here and elsewhere. I guess John compelled all of her bad behavior from beginning to end. Rosebud the puppet, who was forced to volunteer for OS, forced to keep interacting with JD when he flirted with her, forced to take a job at Open Stories Foundation, forced to engage in an extra-marital affair when she was married, forced to propose overthrowing the head of OS so she and John could take over.

Never has there been a more passive, compelled victim than Rosebud.

The same one who told us she sought an affair.

Maybe John Dehlin mesmerized her into thinking so.

I can’t quite recall, but did JD hire or advocate for her promotion to employment while they were having an affair? Or was that an action Open Stories Foundation took independent of JD’s influence?

- Doc

[huckelberry]

...But everything I have seen indicates the two of them mutually stumbled about a sort of affair which John decided was a mistake. He then realized he could not continue working with her so ended the employment...

Ending someone's employment because of a sexual encounter with a superior is the very definition of sexual harassment in the workplace, huckelberry.

People create definitions for legal clarity, to help communication or the clarify the organization of thought. There is only a the definition within a specific context or authority. I checked google and find reference to legal considerations about sexual harassment. The relevant law is reviewed with explanations. I did not see this included. On the other hand I can understand reason to make the inclusion, guide business decisions, social pressure for better behavior. But what does it mean in this case?

[drumdude]

...But everything I have seen indicates the two of them mutually stumbled about a sort of affair which John decided was a mistake. He then realized he could not continue working with her so ended the employment...

Ending someone's employment because of a sexual encounter with a superior is the very definition of sexual harassment in the workplace, huckelberry.

Marcus,

Have you found some legal language which says this is the case? I have been looking any haven’t found anything which applies directly to Dehlin. It’s usually quid pro quo, which in this case John was not asking for sex but for a breakup.

[Kishkumen]

I don't take it personally, I just think you're misremembering. I find it odd that you feel you were among the minority on the issue, when you were clearly in the majority. Because of that the thread as a whole seems a bit vindictive and like beating a dead horse.

I don’t think you and I are engaging in an actual conversation here, drumdude. There is nothing vindictive about this at all. And I don’t think I am misremembering anything. If you are not interested in the point of the thread, that is your prerogative. I am not here to indulge your misdirections and distractions.

[Kishkumen]

I can’t quite recall, but did John Dehlin hire or advocate for her promotion to employment while they were having an affair? Or was that an action Open Stories Foundation took independent of John Dehlin’s influence?

- Doc

I don’t know, Doc. Are you saying that if John hired her she was compelled to accept the job? Or are you trying to suggest that I am whitewashing John’s actions by arguing that at no time was Rosebud compelled to volunteer or take a job with OS? John was obviously guilty of pursuing Rosebud very early on. I’m just saying she had plenty of opportunities to avoid what she instead actually actively pursued.