Actual Ex-Mo Predators

[IWMP]

This does seem to make a strong case that what Dehlin did wasn’t sexual harassment.

It seems to me like improper termination is the more reasonable charge. Rosebud was still perfectly capable of performing her job, Dehlin only wanted her gone because the optics of the relationship looked bad.

I still consider dehlin's actions to be sexual harassment, but I agree that the proper legal term should probably be 'improper termination.'

We call it wrongful termination in the UK. I think it's fair to have your perspective and for others to disagree and their perspective also being fair.

[drumdude]

I still consider dehlin's actions to be sexual harassment, but I agree that the proper legal term should probably be 'improper termination.'

We call it wrongful termination in the UK. I think it's fair to have your perspective and for others to disagree and their perspective also being fair.

Indeed!

[Dwight]

It seems to me like improper termination is the more reasonable charge. Rosebud was still perfectly capable of performing her job, Dehlin only wanted her gone because the optics of the relationship looked bad.

and the documentation Rosebud provided shows it was mainly on Joanna Brooks shoulders’, not John’s. She had both resign and offered 1099 contract positions in the meantime while things got sorted out. JD didn’t demand to keep his job as the main source of donations and the main service of Open Stories Foundation in the Mormon Stories Podcast. Rosebud declined, tried to have a coup so she and John could be an exmo power couple. JD declined. After Rosebud chose to no longer play ball the board then rehired John. These are all important details that get glossed over. Maybe John pulled strings behind the scenes, but what I know of Joanna Brooks I don’t think she would let him get away with it. Perhaps we can Monday morning quarterback how everything went down, but we can’t change the facts. Joanna left cause she didn’t need to be policing things, and maybe that worked to JD’s benefit, but it wasn’t like he orchestrated it.

[IWMP]

Would you consider a predator as being a monster?

What is the top tier?

[To clarify, life is relative and just because some people are brutally abused shouldn't undermine relatively less extreme abuse that goes on. We can't say that because so and so raped someone that that means this other person who harassed someone is ok because it wasn't actual assault. (Not talking about specific people) I don't want to sound like I'm saying that in discussing what we consider a predator to be.]

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I mean, we don’t really know what JD’s mindset was. We have to go off Rosebud’s testimony, but she has been an unreliable narrator and it hurt her credibility as a witness.

But, what is a predator in this situation?

Is it a ‘boss man’ who sees a woman who is not his wife, and desires her? No. Desire is a natural feeling most of us have to experience thanks to nature.

Is it a boss man who acts upon these desires with an organizational subordinate where the risk is low for him and high for her? Well. Can it ever be equal? It maybe has a chance if it had gone the way Rosebud had hoped. But that would’ve required the boss man to voluntarily increase his risk and reduce her’s. There’s definitely something predatory about a dynamic where the one who incurs the most risk is done away with when it becomes inconvenient to the boss man.

Whatever the case may be, it does feel kind of gross reducing a complex interaction down to power dynamics- but we also can’t really avoid it. Had JD never acted upon his impulses, Rosebud could’ve retained gainful employment, or be let go by the Open Stories Foundation board due to performance issues or organizational restructuring. Perfectly fine, professional, and ethical.

But it didn’t happen that way. Boss man chose to get it on with a subordinate, and got rid of her when it didn’t go the way he wanted. That’s power, and it’s kind of predatory in my opinion.

- Doc

[IWMP]

It seems to me like improper termination is the more reasonable charge. Rosebud was still perfectly capable of performing her job, Dehlin only wanted her gone because the optics of the relationship looked bad.

and the documentation Rosebud provided shows it was mainly on Joanna Brooks shoulders’, not John’s. She had both resign and offered 1099 contract positions in the meantime while things got sorted out. John Dehlin didn’t demand to keep his job as the main source of donations and the main service of Open Stories Foundation in the Mormon Stories Podcast. Rosebud declined, tried to have a coup so she and John could be an exmo power couple. John Dehlin declined. After Rosebud chose to no longer play ball the board then rehired John. These are all important details that get glossed over. Maybe John pulled strings behind the scenes, but what I know of Joanna Brooks I don’t think she would let him get away with it. Perhaps we can Monday morning quarterback how everything went down, but we can’t change the facts. Joanna left cause she didn’t need to be policing things, and maybe that worked to John Dehlin’s benefit, but it wasn’t like he orchestrated it.

I'm not processing this. I don't think it needs to be Dehlin firing her for it to be unfair.

Did Dehlin take up a contract position that was offered to both or return to the previous position?

[Dwight]

Dehlin took the contract position. I don’t know the exact timeline, but Rosebud had declined and since there would no longer be the situation of two employees who had an (emotional) affair working together he was rehired. I could be wrong, but as I recall she rejected it, went to JD and said let’s fire Joanna (and the board) and take over Open Stories Foundation instead. JD told her no. Rosebud turned down the contract position and also declined to participate in any investigation. The board couldn’t force her to, and since it was then moot, they moved on.

[drumdude]

It seems to me like improper termination is the more reasonable charge. Rosebud was still perfectly capable of performing her job, Dehlin only wanted her gone because the optics of the relationship looked bad.

and the documentation Rosebud provided shows it was mainly on Joanna Brooks shoulders’, not John’s. She had both resign and offered 1099 contract positions in the meantime while things got sorted out. John Dehlin didn’t demand to keep his job as the main source of donations and the main service of Open Stories Foundation in the Mormon Stories Podcast. Rosebud declined, tried to have a coup so she and John could be an exmo power couple. John Dehlin declined. After Rosebud chose to no longer play ball the board then rehired John. These are all important details that get glossed over. Maybe John pulled strings behind the scenes, but what I know of Joanna Brooks I don’t think she would let him get away with it. Perhaps we can Monday morning quarterback how everything went down, but we can’t change the facts. Joanna left cause she didn’t need to be policing things, and maybe that worked to John Dehlin’s benefit, but it wasn’t like he orchestrated it.

John preferred to go without a board, since ti would streamline the decision making process and the general administration of MoSto. When I realized that John would be the sole director, sole employee, and owner of much of the intellectual property of MoSto, however, I started pushing harder for a board of directors to reassure the IRS that MoSto wasn't merely a pass-through entity created solely to directly benefit John. Once we all agreed that MoSto needed a board of directors, incorporating in AZ instead of UT didn't make as much sense since MoSto has limited contact with AZ.

John never wanted anything from the board except to bolster the image that Mormon Stories was a legit non profit.

If there are any instances of the board acting against John’s wishes, I’ve never heard of them.

[IWMP]

I mean, we don’t really know what John Dehlin’s mindset was. We have to go off Rosebud’s testimony, but she has been an unreliable narrator and it hurt her credibility as a witness.

But, what is a predator in this situation?

Is it a ‘boss man’ who sees a woman who is not his wife, and desires her? No. Desire is a natural feeling most of us have to experience thanks to nature.

Is it a boss man who acts upon these desires with an organizational subordinate where the risk is low for him and high for her? Well. Can it ever be equal? It maybe has a chance if it had gone the way Rosebud had hoped. But that would’ve required the boss man to voluntarily increase his risk and reduce her’s. There’s definitely something predatory about a dynamic where the one who incurs the most risk is done away with when it becomes inconvenient to the boss man.

Whatever the case may be, it does feel kind of gross reducing a complex interaction down to power dynamics- but we also can’t really avoid it. Had John Dehlin never acted upon his impulses, Rosebud could’ve retained gainful employment, or be let go by the Open Stories Foundation board due to performance issues or organizational restructuring. Perfectly fine, professional, and ethical.

But it didn’t happen that way. Boss man chose to get it on with a subordinate, and got rid of her when it didn’t go the way he wanted. That’s power,and it’s kind of predatory in my opinion.

- Doc

I got the impression she was valuable to the company. Perhaps I read that wrong.

Does having power equal being a predator?

In my mind a predator watches their prey, they act with complete control and understanding of what they are doing and what outcome they will create. Planning their every move. Strategically orchestrating situations to gain what they want. They know what they are doing. I believe one can have more power without being abusive. The choice to abuse that power is where it becomes wrong. The abuse of power didn't happen until after the breakdown of the relationship. So the line there is that the relationship wasn't abusive. But Dwight is suggesting that the abuse of power didn't happen because dehlin was also fired. But if he got his job back without consequences then one wonders if he really was fired. (Forced to resign) Pretty sure I can't just walk back into the job I was fired from. Pulling strings behind scenes is using power.

Edit: saw Dwight's response since writing this. If they were both offered contract positions and dehlin accepted and rosebud didn't then it negates the abuse of power in relation to unlawful firing. But then the next step would be to consider the psychological relationship that might affect ones ability to take up a contract.

[Dwight]

(in reference to drumdrum’s post before this one)

Well that proves it, and even if someone can find an instance then that is just proof that JD orchestrated it so he could say he doesn’t completely control the board.

Joanna fired him. There is an instance that the board didn’t do what he wanted, or do you think he conspired that by making him and Rosebud contractors that he knew Rosebud would reject it and he would just end up as an employee again?