David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

[drumdude]

DCP says it’s “profoundly weird” to be talked about for 20 years. But is it “profoundly weird” for democrats to talk about Trump for 15 years? He’s been the face of the Republican Party. Likewise DCP has placed himself at the center of Mormon apologetics. The attention he gets is of his own making.

*insert surprised pikachu face meme here*

[Kishkumen]

DCP, LDS apologetics, Mormonism in general: all of these topics are interesting. I am not surprised that they continue to attract attention and comment.

[Markk]

DCP, LDS apologetics, Mormonism in general: all of these topics are interesting. I am not surprised that they continue to attract attention and comment.

Sure, I have been "studying" this for over 33 years since first leaving, and am still blown away from how little I know. I just learned and had no idea that JFS disliked "Jesus the Christ" by Talmage, and he had issues with Talmage and Widstoe. I have identified myself as a JFS/BRM/Talmage Mormon, yet I had no idea how much they were opposed. And the way that Harris lays it out is like "duh" ....they certainly were, why didn't I put that together?

If you haven't listened the last episode on Race at Mormon stories....it is simply fascinating in my opinion...a must listen. Dr. Harris is about as sharp as they come on this subject.

https://www.mormonstories.org/fired-for ... ng-racism/

[Markk]

DCP says it’s “profoundly weird” to be talked about for 20 years. But is it “profoundly weird” for democrats to talk about Trump for 15 years? He’s been the face of the Republican Party. Likewise DCP has placed himself at the center of Mormon apologetics. The attention he gets is of his own making.

*insert surprised pikachu face meme here*

For the ones in the basement stalking Trump....yes extremely weird I would say, and maybe sick.

[drumdude]

DCP says it’s “profoundly weird” to be talked about for 20 years. But is it “profoundly weird” for democrats to talk about Trump for 15 years? He’s been the face of the Republican Party. Likewise DCP has placed himself at the center of Mormon apologetics. The attention he gets is of his own making.

*insert surprised pikachu face meme here*

For the ones in the basement stalking Trump....yes extremely weird I would say, and maybe sick.

I haven’t seen DCP mention anyone here living in a basement. I’m happily above ground, and I imagine the rest of us are too.

I have seen DCP characterize merely quoting him as “stalking.” But maybe that comes from his many years of training - giving unique definitions to the plain words of the Book of Mormon.

[Kishkumen]

Sure, I have been "studying" this for over 33 years since first leaving, and am still blown away from how little I know. I just learned and had no idea that JFS disliked "Jesus the Christ" by Talmage, and he had issues with Talmage and Widstoe. I have identified myself as a JFS/BRM/Talmage Mormon, yet I had no idea how much they were opposed. And the way that Harris lays it out is like "duh" ....they certainly were, why didn't I put that together?

If you haven't listened the last episode on Race at Mormon stories....it is simply fascinating in my opinion...a must listen. Dr. Harris is about as sharp as they come on this subject.

https://www.mormonstories.org/fired-for ... ng-racism/

Thanks for the recommendation!

[Gadianton]

I'm aware that Interpretor is less relevant than Meldrum and younger social media ventures to Mormons at large, but they aren't more relevant to Mormonism's foundational truth claim. I've noted before family reunions where Meldrum is talked about but nobody knows who FARMS is. While Meldrum brings a smile because he validates Chapel Mormonism, which the apologists always denied existed, his work is not worth my time. His movement is embedded in alt right Christian Nationalist nonsense. Members get sucked into it by way right-wing politics and related conspiracy culture and they are about as interested in geography as a Trumper is interested in economics. There is no credibility.

Hugh Nibley and his disciples had bare credibility and have made the only serious attempts at proving the Book of Mormon is historical. The fact that FARMS got personal with critics added an unintended enduring dimension to their work. A very enduring dimension. I think old school FARMS got about as much official endorsement from the Church as anybody is ever going to get, however, and in contrast, the leader of Midnight Mormons is not working out of two offices paid for by the Church.

The problem with Interpretor isn't that it isn't popular, but that it does round-about scholarship at best. Occasionally it tries something adventurous and crashes and burns, but no other outlet is saddled with the heavy burden of proving the Book of Mormon historical.

[Markk]

I'm aware that Interpretor is less relevant than Meldrum and younger social media ventures to Mormons at large, but they aren't more relevant to Mormonism's foundational truth claim. I've noted before family reunions where Meldrum is talked about but nobody knows who FARMS is. While Meldrum brings a smile because he validates Chapel Mormonism, which the apologists always denied existed, his work is not worth my time. His movement is embedded in alt right Christian Nationalist nonsense. Members get sucked into it by way right-wing politics and related conspiracy culture and they are about as interested in geography as a Trumper is interested in economics. There is no credibility.

Hugh Nibley and his disciples had bare credibility and have made the only serious attempts at proving the Book of Mormon is historical. The fact that FARMS got personal with critics added an unintended enduring dimension to their work. A very enduring dimension. I think old school FARMS got about as much official endorsement from the Church as anybody is ever going to get, however, and in contrast, the leader of Midnight Mormons is not working out of two offices paid for by the Church.

The problem with Interpretor isn't that it isn't popular, but that it does round-about scholarship at best. Occasionally it tries something adventurous and crashes and burns, but no other outlet is saddled with the heavy burden of proving the Book of Mormon historical.

I'm aware that Interpretor is less relevant than Meldrum and younger social media ventures to Mormons at large, but they aren't more relevant to Mormonism's foundational truth claim. I've noted before family reunions where Meldrum is talked about but nobody knows who FARMS is. While Meldrum brings a smile because he validates Chapel Mormonism, which the apologists always denied existed, his work is not worth my time. His movement is embedded in alt right Christian Nationalist nonsense. Members get sucked into it by way right-wing politics and related conspiracy culture and they are about as interested in geography as a Trumper is interested in economics. There is no credibility.

LOL...come on Gad, this site has been bagging on DCP (myself, more that guilty for a lot longer) for what 20 years or so, on how he has no credibility. And yet you have time for Dan, and not time for Rodney? I think both are way off but find them equally interesting on the curve.

How is NOT the heartland model more foundational to LDS truth claims? It is, more or less, what I was taught in the church in the late 60's and early 70's. How is not conservative values not foundational to Mormon thought? He is a real Mormon if anything, with the same values and beliefs of my parents and grand parents.

Hugh Nibley and his disciples had bare credibility and have made the only serious attempts at proving the Book of Mormon is historical. The fact that FARMS got personal with critics added an unintended enduring dimension to their work. A very enduring dimension. I think old school FARMS got about as much official endorsement from the Church as anybody is ever going to get, however, and in contrast, the leader of Midnight Mormons is not working out of two offices paid for by the Church.

And how did that work out for the church? GBH let these guys run wild, and they screwed up so bad Monson had to come in and clean house. Hamblin, Lou, and DCP were a deep embarrassment to the church, who gave them Tapirs, hit pieces, Metcalf is Butthead. Heck Gad, Dr Scratch, whom we are kind of discussing here, had spend a quarter of his life showing that FARMs has no credibility. Or do you hold the Interpreter is a valid scholarly "Journal?" Or DCP's media productions as relevant?

The problem with Interpretor isn't that it isn't popular, but that it does round-about scholarship at best. Occasionally it tries something adventurous and crashes and burns, but no other outlet is saddled with the heavy burden of proving the Book of Mormon historical.

Who reads the journal...if anything Dr. Scratch and this forum opens it up to the critics, otherwise it would be less relevant than it is.

I have been blessed or cursed for the past 5 years with a 3 plus hour commute to work. I glean so much from listening to the different podcasts both pro and con to Mormonism during my commute. The audience and hits of these podcast dwarfs anything Farms/NMI has to offer. It is not even close.

The Interpreter isn't popular.... because it is not relevant, it is like the local newspaper, and no body cares about it, and the younger generations don't read, they listen. Which is why folks are jumping all over the RFM's and Meldrum's. And as they get better, and they build their brands, it will only grow. I learned more about the Book of Abraham listening to 13 hours of RFM and Ritner (3 times), than 25 years of mucking through the crap online, far more. And I learn about the state of the progressive swing of the church by listening to crap like the Midnight Mormons, and the conservative Meldrum and Hanna Stoddard.

[Philo Sofee]

DCP, LDS apologetics, Mormonism in general: all of these topics are interesting. I am not surprised that they continue to attract attention and comment.

Sure, I have been "studying" this for over 33 years since first leaving, and am still blown away from how little I know. I just learned and had no idea that JFS disliked "Jesus the Christ" by Talmage, and he had issues with Talmage and Widstoe. I have identified myself as a JFS/BRM/Talmage Mormon, yet I had no idea how much they were opposed. And the way that Harris lays it out is like "duh" ....they certainly were, why didn't I put that together?

If you haven't listened the last episode on Race at Mormon stories....it is simply fascinating in my opinion...a must listen. Dr. Harris is about as sharp as they come on this subject.

https://www.mormonstories.org/fired-for ... ng-racism/

I shall also be sharing and talking about Joseph Fielding Smith's rampant racism as PROPHET in my live session tonight with Doug Vincent. We are discussing Matthew Harris's book "Second Class Saints." It will blow your mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYknBPkk1gY

[Rivendale]

Too bad you aren't doing an episode on Joseph F Smith because he was just as racist as Fielding. And for an extra bonus he was abusive.

?Last evening we were aroused from our sleep by the suden pitiful yawlings of a cat that had evidenly become ensnared by her own Trappings. This morning we took old ?Tabby? and after pronouncing her guilty of attempted manslaughter and chicken murder; she was sentenced to be hung!** We called in her friends; they took the last lingering look at her, + returned, then we proceeded to the gibit to exicute the manicled culprit.
“The ensuing scene would be horible! Tabby had no notion of dying and Irea (?) we had some notion, she should, but our resolutions were not indefea_ble. We, however, indevered to shortin her carear, by virtue of Stones, which were aimed at her head with uncalculable persision! At length the rope parted by the poor thing?s cranium coming in contiguous relation with an infuriated adamant of not uncommon size! Poor Cittys head was then decapitated and her obsequies attended to.?

And the church had the nerve to put a section in their manuals with him regarding abuse. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ ... lang=eng