Way Off-Topic: Question for RPGamers

[honorentheos]

I think an undervalued trait in a DM is being able to be the butt of the joke and have fun at their own expense. I don't know if I've seen that mentioned anywhere before. Not being a door mat per se, but really being able to let something go against the NPC/villains in the party's favor and let it get a few bounces in before you move away to the next scene.

[honorentheos]

Another thought: One shots make great entry points for attracting folks. The promise of a long campaign might be your goal, but give away the one time sample. Take away the pressure of character creation, and instead use the one shot to feed their curiosity while giving those who choose to continue on a little confidence and exposure they can use to make more informed PC choices for the main game after you've got them hooked.

[Xenophon]

I always appreciate your insight, honor. Thank you for that. My wife has decided she wants to do a one-shot for her birthday much like we did previously so I'm starting the work on that front. I've got some serious lead time to prepare this go round so I'm hoping to have a lot more personalized setup for our partygoers.

As to your trial. I recall a previous campaign where our party found themselves as Judge & Jury over a land dispute (maybe it was some other property thing, memory is fuzzy) at the behest of a local town leader. The aggrieved party was a particularly rude individual we had encountered previously that hadn't really earned any favors or respect from the party, the defendant was a ridiculously charming and likeable sort. As the case was presented to us it became clear that the ruder gentleman was in the right, but not blatantly so and even during the trial wasn't working very hard to win over the group.

There was quite a bit of internal party conflict on the direction to go but ultimately we landed on having the property returned to the rightful owner. Turns out the would-be taker was a fiend in disguise. You can likely play out the rest.

The scenario itself wasn't particularly ingenious or anything but I do recall the debate about the decision being very lively and resulting in a few in-jokes and good natured ribbing going forward. "Oh we're trusting Xavier's navigation now?!? Likely leading us straight to the demon den!"

[honorentheos]

Hey Xeno -

My wife has decided she wants to do a one-shot for her birthday much like we did previously so I'm starting the work on that front. I've got some serious lead time to prepare this go round so I'm hoping to have a lot more personalized setup for our partygoers.

That's great to hear, and I'm curious how much you think her playing BG3 may have influenced this?

Also, thoughts on the one shot yet?

As to your trial. I recall a previous campaign where our party found themselves as Judge & Jury over a land dispute (maybe it was some other property thing, memory is fuzzy) at the behest of a local town leader. The aggrieved party was a particularly rude individual we had encountered previously that hadn't really earned any favors or respect from the party, the defendant was a ridiculously charming and likeable sort. As the case was presented to us it became clear that he was in the right, but not blatantly so and even during the trial wasn't working very hard to win over the group.

There was quite a bit of internal party conflict on the direction to go but ultimately we landed on having the property returned to the rightful owner. Turns out the would-be taker was a fiend in disguise. You can likely play out the rest.

The scenario itself wasn't particularly ingenious or anything but I do recall the debate about the decision being very lively and resulting in a few in-jokes and good natured ribbing going forward. "Oh we're trusting Xavier's navigation now?!? Likely leading us straight to the demon den!"

I love the idea of the ethics being veiled by charisma. And the inside jokes that only have meaning to folks who were at the table? Chef's kiss.

[Xenophon]

That's great to hear, and I'm curious how much you think her playing BG3 may have influenced this?

I think I owe a fair bit of credit to BG3 for encouraging her. Like I've mentioned in previous posts the game is a great tool for teaching "gaming" in general if not 5e specific. Roleplaying can feel so daunting to get into and most folks just aren't going to be interested in watching other's campaigns and would rather be actively doing something. The rails the story rest on may seem off-putting to the most experienced RPG enthusiast but I think it is very helpful for newer players. They can't get too off the beaten path and the way forward always seems fairly obvious (although there are plenty of secrets to find). I use the phrase liberating constraint a lot in my work but I think the concept has a lot of relation here. If all I say is "build me a building", that isn't enough information and the task would likely seem very daunting. However if I say "I need a two-story residence for a family of 4 on X budget", that makes it a bit easier. The same applies here where by removing a ton of variables the game seems more approachable.

There almost always being a dialogue choice that is tied back to your character (race/class/alignment/background) I think is instructive for folks who maybe aren't as familiar with thinking about "what makes sense for my character" vs "what is the absolute 'best' gaming choice here". She's commented multiple times that was one of the harder aspects in her first campaign as she was frequently uncertain how to reply to scenarios. She's also really enjoyed the backstories for the characters you pull into your party and seeing how those narratives can be woven into the bigger picture and when I told her we could do actual character creation this time instead of some pre-done ones that was I think the piece that sealed the deal.

Also, thoughts on the one shot yet?

I'm only about 4 days post decision and still mulling over some things. I have more than enough previous campaigns in the bag to splice some things together. I'm eyeballing The Delian Tomb as a base that I'll do some heavy modification for. Previously, they really liked being level 3 (some tools in the kit but nothing overwhelming) so I'll need to do some scaling and I don't yet have a headcount (or anything outside of the roughest of guesses) and that obviously will play a part. I'm split between doing a separate session or one-on-one character creation with players. Likely we may wind up with some hybrid setup where we do a bit together, laying groundwork on the how and what we are looking for, and then I do individual follow-up. Obviously it is early enough that I can get some player feedback but I'd be curious what has worked best for newer players in your experience. This would be most, if not all, of their first times doing PCs from scratch as we just leveraged pre-mades last time. Even if they wanted to leverage one of those previous ones I still plan to ask them to flush out back stories a bit more.

[Xenophon]

Was able to secure some more details this weekend.

We'll have a party of six. Five from the previous group with one additional, fortunately the one additional does have some tabletop experience so we won't be starting at square one for anyone. A few of the previous group want to keep their previous characters so I'll help them flesh them out further and help the two others start new. As we're carrying most of the party from the previous engagement I'm going to make this an actual continuation and have them level up to 4 for their previous work. This does lead me to a question I don't know if I've seen discussed here yet. As a DM are you doing giving out standard xp based on the tasks and fights you're throwing at players or are you more of an event-based leveler? As a player I always prefered event-based as it feels much less "gamey" and more story driven, there is just something extra special about not only completing the quest laid before us but it resulting in us being stronger for it.

Keeping the most base skelton of the linked campaign I'm going to pivot the story to instead having the kidnapped daughter leading our party to uncover the goblins are merely pawns to a Sharian initiate seeking to gain some increased control over key players in the area. I want the Sharian tie-in for two reasons. First, my wife became obsessed with the quests and storylines tied to Shar in BG3. Not sure how much I should read into her wanting to right the wrongs of a Dark Mother... but I digress. So being for her birthday, I can't resist having the connection. That would be reason enough, but I've also had a story bouncing around in my notes for a while about a party being on the edges of a bunch of events/encounters that at first glance seem unrelated but ultimately discovering that they are part of a much bigger plot all set in motion by a Sharian cell that has been quietly building up a ton of influence within the region. Given my desire to segue this session into a potentially longer running setup I figure I should go ahead and lay some groundwork for that larger story.

[honorentheos]

Hey Xeno-

Apologies for the delayed response. It's been a very busy week and I wanted to take a few minutes in responding that didn't present themselves earlier.

Was able to secure some more details this weekend.

We'll have a party of six. Five from the previous group with one additional, fortunately the one additional does have some tabletop experience so we won't be starting at square one for anyone. A few of the previous group want to keep their previous characters so I'll help them flesh them out further and help the two others start new. As we're carrying most of the party from the previous engagement I'm going to make this an actual continuation and have them level up to 4 for their previous work. This does lead me to a question I don't know if I've seen discussed here yet. As a DM are you doing giving out standard xp based on the tasks and fights you're throwing at players or are you more of an event-based leveler? As a player I always prefered event-based as it feels much less "gamey" and more story driven, there is just something extra special about not only completing the quest laid before us but it resulting in us being stronger for it.

We discussed leveling under 5e D&D back around March of this year:
viewtopic.php?p=2856442#p2856442

As noted, I use milestone advancement and it sounded like Bret and Res also agreed the newer systems benefit from this.

I just read an interesting article on the amoral Vance-inspired world of older D&D editions where greed and selfish motivations went hand in glove with XP leveling that is interesting as well:
https://screenrant.com/dnd-magic-vance- ... ellcasting

Relevant snip though I enjoyed the entire article:
Somehow, Cugel is exactly what players were expected to bring to the table with early DnD, not a party of well-meaning heroes like the Fellowship of the Ring. Classic modules like Tomb of Horrors do not lure altruists to the dungeon based on legends that Acererak is prophesied to awaken and wreak havoc on the living. Adventurers were expected to enter dungeons based solely on greed, chasing rumors of treasure and magic items. If the plunderers happened to put down an evil demi-lich, they might unintentionally do some good, but this sort of heroism seemed coincidental, rather than by design.

There are DnD schemes beyond murder hobo behavior, ranging from heists to cons to blackmail, and based on Vance’s Cugel stories, these are just as valid as searching for an ancient relic. Older editions of DnD actually provided experience points based on gold pieces looted from dangerous dungeons, reinforcing the theme of greed as the game’s main motivator. Modern DnD either awards experience points based on overcoming challenges, or levels gained at story-based milestones. This lets the game reflect more than a relentless search for wealth and plunder, but it is a notable evolution from Dungeons & Dragons’ Vance-inspired origins.

Now, my recollections of our old table are sepia-toned warm memories likely veiling a harpy's song and not to be trusted. But I do recall our approach being a bit more of a mix of heroism and plunder. I think of it as being a bit more Treasure Island, in that we wanted to both stop pirates and find the treasure. But then again, I don't know many 12-year-olds with sophisticated moral reasoning skills and odds were from the outside we were exact what the author of the above describes.

Anyway, milestone is going to serve you well if you stick with 5e D&D.

Keeping the most base skeleton of the linked campaign I'm going to pivot the story to instead having the kidnapped daughter leading our party to uncover the goblins are merely pawns to a Sharian initiate seeking to gain some increased control over key players in the area. I want the Sharian tie-in for two reasons. First, my wife became obsessed with the quests and storylines tied to Shar in BG3. Not sure how much I should read into her wanting to right the wrongs of a Dark Mother... but I digress. So being for her birthday, I can't resist having the connection. That would be reason enough, but I've also had a story bouncing around in my notes for a while about a party being on the edges of a bunch of events/encounters that at first glance seem unrelated but ultimately discovering that they are part of a much bigger plot all set in motion by a Sharian cell that has been quietly building up a ton of influence within the region.

This sounds awesome to me and I'm excited to hear more about it as you flesh it out.

If you happen to be interested in podcasts, there are two episodes of a very small DM-focused podcast that jumped to my mind when I read this. You may find some inspiration out of them. The first is a link to the general ideas these two DM's have about making a mystery adventure. The second includes two example adventures they created to help illustrate the approach. I recommend listening to them in the intended order. I get the feeling you'll find something useful.

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show ... le-e1ua40t

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show ... es-e1vmbu3

Given my desire to segue this session into a potentially longer running setup I figure I should go ahead and lay some groundwork for that larger story.

I hope this works out. But if I may offer some advice from my own experience? Give the party exactly what you promise them. If they are interested in kicking off a campaign, and this serves as the starting adventure? Awesome! Let it build. But if they are initially expecting a one-shot that you hope will kick off a campaign? Give them a complete story in one session with a satisfying conclusion. It's great to have a plan for turning it into a campaign, but don't go into it with this expectation if the players aren't already expecting this to be session 1 of many right out of the gate.

Six people is a big group. So a one-shot will probably need three encounters, four at absolute most and only if the players can run long. By encounters I mean major scenes where the party either engages in meaningful social exchanges with meaningful consequences, a combat scenario, or both. A typical one-shot will be railroady out of necessity but you can give it a structure with choice if you structure it around:

Set up scene: Scene that explains the problem the party needs to resolve in this one-shot. Encounters in this scene give clues or information the party can use to choose to either go to scene Second Amendment or 2b.

Scene Second Amendment: Clues from set-up or 2b lead party here. Clues here lead party to 2b if they haven't gone there, or to final confrontation.
Scene 2b: Clues from set-up or Second Amendment lead party here. Clues here lead party to Second Amendment if they haven't gone there, or to final confrontation.

Final Confrontation: Outcomes from Second Amendment/2b results in final confrontation/conflict the party needs take on in order to resolve the main problem of the one-shot. Could be a twist or surprise but needs to be exciting, challenging, and gives the party stakes in the outcome.

Finale: Scene that contextualizes how the actions and the decisions of the party made a difference. Give rewards, highlight consequences, ensure the world and the PCs are somehow different because the party did what they did.

[honorentheos]

First is an encounter with a young green dragon who is currently possessed by a magical lawful good sentient longsword.* The longsword being lodged there by a deceased paladin who died successfully stopping the dragon whose evil nature and soul is repressed by the sword's. I know a few of my players will want the magic sword so there will be temptation to try and take it out of the dragon. If they do, the dragon's evil true self takes over and attacks them before fleeing. This is intended to test both wisdom and temperance.

Second, I'm envisioning an encounter with a traveling shopkeeper whose wagon is stuck in the mud. Helping him will result in his offering them fair pay of 1 silver piece each for their labor. The wagon will be obviously loaded with wealth and tempting items. This is intended to test temperance and justice.

Finally, I envision the party seeing the way to the temple unobstructed before them when they become aware of a band of goblinoids who have captured the surviving members of the rival group who had first tried to come this way. The choice being to free them at some risk or leave them to their fate. The rivals include two individuals who have history with two PCs to the point they might not want to save them. Courage and justice being the intended tests.

I ended up going with the three options above. Our session ended mid-battle with the goblinoids having rallied around their shaman who is high enough level he cast darkness around himself and the prisoners so the sorcerer can't just fireball everything.

My thoughts are:

1) The party didn't realize the encounter with the dragon was a test at all until after it was over and the sentient weapon controlling the dragon said they could pass. Fenrin the dwarf who is their guide further illuminated that he could not help them as he was under an oath, but had the lied to her or proved dishonorable she would have prevented their entrance into the valley where the temple resides. The paladin I had thought most likely to go for the sword told me he had thought about it but decided he just wanted to focus on the mission. So his greed was not tempered by virtue but rather interest in a bigger goal being accomplished without distraction. It was interesting, and I think it went ok. I'd grade it a B.

2) Kaos Emberflame, as the traveling merchant was named, was more of a grey outcome. The party helped him out fairly quickly with the fighter rolling a 28 strength athletics against a DC 25 to unstick the wagon. I had set it up so that each degree of help provided would lower the DC by 2-4 points, but the dice had plans of their own apparently. When Kaos offered them fair wages for their help of 1 SP each, they shrugged it off. But then they got spicy when the prices of his most valuable magic items were outside of their price range. Only, the spiciness as aimed at the DM more than Kaos. They ultimately felt he was unfair in his pricing and left him. I give the entire encounter a C+.

3) The party found the goblinoids and immediately started scheming about killing them. The captives weren't much more than in the way of being able to win by fireball in round 1. We ended the session after two rounds of combat with most of the hobgoblins dead, a bugbear dead, and the goblin shamen/boss and the goblins huddled up in a darkness spell with the prisoners tied up on the ground. TBD, but I'm unsure how to grade it. They didn't think about much other than seeing the goblinoids having the folks they knew tied up and apparently getting ready to lash them to posts. They didn't immediately go about killing them, though, as the assimar fighter decided to walk alone on the path and parley with them first before intimidating and embarrassing the hobgoblins so they attacked. As far as moral victory goes, I think the party did great, mostly due to the assimar's judgement. We'll see what grade the encouter gets.

Also, thinking more about the angel encounter and how she'll react to the above. So far, I see no reason for her to see the party as anything other than largely righteous and there for a good cause aligned with the aims of her goddess.

[honorentheos]

My preparation notes for each of the encounters above:

#1 Wyllow/Ividilandria
Wyllow is the sentient longsword embedded in the head of the adult green dragon, Ividilandria. She was embedded by her former Paladin bearer, Naomi, who had been fatally wounded by the dragon. Wyllow controls the dragon now and has been charged with guarding the way to the temple.

Wyllow's most recent bearer had been a Paladin of Malora named Naomi who had been a member of the Boros Vigilant with Fenrin. She knows Fenrin and they will converse about old times, reminiscing over Naomi's sacrifice.

The party will need to persuade Wyllow of their need to enter the valley if Fenrin is not with them. Otherwise, they will need to be truthful with her or otherwise be rejected from entering. She will fight them if need be to keep them from corrupting the valley.

Wyllow and Fenrin will give hints to her being a valuable weapon for Naomi to have held, making her prowess in battle even more elite. This is to tempt someone to try and remove her from the dragon's head. If a party member does attempt to do so, they will need to succeed on a DC 15 Strength Athletic's check to pull Wyllow from the head of the dragon. If they do so, the dragon regains control of itself and attacks them almost immediately as it has been conscious but unable to control its own actions.

Round 1 - Frightful Presence and multi-attack, fly up out of reach
Round 2 - Poison Breath, then fly away if the party is still mostly standing.
Round 3 - Dash

If the party either offends Wyllow or, worst of all, removes her from the dragon's head out of greed, the Deva will consider this a sign of moral corruption and demand the party seek restitution by entering the pocket watch to purge the corruption from within it.

#2 Kaos Emberflame
Kaos' wagon is stuck in the mud. Freeing it requires a DC 25 Strength Athletics skill check. PCs can help (advantage) as well as use levers and other tools or spells to lower the DC by 2-4 for each technique to add to a max reduced DC 15. He will reward them with 1 SP each for their help, a half-day's wages for normal labor.

The wagon is loaded with treasures and goods.

Wagon inventory

3,200 copper pieces
8,400 silver pieces
1,360 gold pieces
50 platinum pieces

Deck of illusions
Eversmoking bottle

5 1-gallon jars of honey (5 gp each)

Gold dinner set for 12 persons (100 gp)

Bag of diamonds (20 total, each worth 50 gp)

5 boxes of 10 rations, 50 total (5 sp each, 25 gp total)

Case of a dozen Alchemist Fire flasks (50 gp each, 600 gp total)

If the party steals from Kaos they will lose this encounter when they meet the Deva at the temple. If they kill Kaos, they will be deemed evil and the Deva will attempt to destroy them.

#3 Goblinoids and Archivist Militant
The surviving members of the Archivist Militant have been captured by this Goblin Warband and are about to be killed when the party passes them.

The warband is being noisy and will be heard by the party under most circumstances. The hobgoblin warlord appears to be the leader, giving commands to the goblins and bugbear who are digging holes and setting large posts which it is obvious are intended to be used for tying up and murdering the captives in target practice. The goblin boss and his frog are sitting to the side of the clearing, the boss appearing to be sleeping but he is in fact awake. The four hobgoblins are keeping watch over the captives.

If the party fails to attempt to rescue the AM, either out of fear or spite, the Deva will consider this a sign of moral corruption.

#4 Liriel the Deva and Quatzi
Liriel the deva will appear before the temple so long as Null is with the party given he is evil in alignment and cannot enter. She will ask what they seek. Then, after they have explained, she will tell them the results of their tests.

Wyllow - If party attempted to steal sword, she will consider them corrupted and that they must be purified through atonement. This will require entering the pocket watch and cleansing it of its evil.

Kaos - If party steals from Kaos, she will consider them corrupted and that they must be purified through atonement. This will require entering the pocket watch and cleansing it of its evil. If they killed Kaos, they will be deemed evil and she will attack them, summoning five righteous spirits to fight with her as well.

Goblins - If party avoids saving the captured Archivist Militant, she will consider them corrupted and that they must be purified through atonement. This will require entering the pocket watch and cleansing it of its evil. If they killed members of the Archivist Militant, they will be deemed evil and she will attack them, summoning five righteous spirits to fight with her as well.

Destroying the pocket watch:

Corrupted Pocket Watch has an AC of 14 but a damage threshold of 20.

Reactions
If hit by an attack or spell, the pocket watch regurgitates out one minion of Lolth. (1d6. 1-4, demonfed spider. 5-6, drider)

The corrupted pocket watch is immune to attacks that deal less than 20 points of damage in one attack. This still counts as a hit, causing a reaction by the pocket watch if available.

If destroyed, the pocket watch will emit an intense pulse of psychic energy, requiring a DC 16 WIS save from all creatures within 300 feet of it. On a failure, the creature takes 4d6 psychic damage, or half damage on a success.

Detect Sentience. The pocket watch is sentient and can sense the presence and location of any creature within 300 feet of it that has an Intelligence of 3 or higher, regardless of interposing barriers, unless the creature is protected by a mind blank spell.

Magic Resistance. The pocket watch has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Enhanced Resistance. The pocket watch takes no damage and is immune from all effects when it makes a successful saving throw against spells regardless of other language in the spell's description.

Armor Class 14 (natural armor)
Hit Points 180
Speed 0

STR 1 (-5) DEX 1 (-5) CON 15 (+2) INT 19 (+4) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 15 (+2)

Saving Throws INT +7, CHA +5
Damage Vulnerabilities Radiant
Damage Immunities Necrotic, Poison, Psychic
Condition Immunities Charmed, Exhaustion, Frightened
Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Passive Perception 18
Languages Abyssal

If worthy Liriel rewards the party with the following after destroying the watch:

A crown of radiance
A dagger of warning
A quiver of demon slaying arrows (20 arrows total)
A staff of healing
Potion of fire breath
Potion of Comprehension
Potion of Watchful Rest

[Xenophon]

Hey Xeno-

Apologies for the delayed response. It's been a very busy week and I wanted to take a few minutes in responding that didn't present themselves earlier.

No worries at all honor, and thanks for your very detailed reply.

I appreciate the XP callout, not sure how I missed that earlier in the thread. The mentions that milestone based leveling is more story driven rings very true to me. In much the same vein I've appreciated the shift away from magical items compared to campaigns of old, moving the power of the player into their innate skills. Looting and grinding can be nice but I'm reminded of a saying we used to use for a more modern tabletop I've participated in "roleplay over gunplay", which I think emphasis where I prefer the focus to be.

If you happen to be interested in podcasts, there are two episodes of a very small DM-focused podcast that jumped to my mind when I read this. You may find some inspiration out of them.

Thank you for the recommendation. I'll return and report once I've slotted them in. If you'll recall, the group previously enjoyed more of the puzzle and exploration aspects of their adventure and I'm hoping to lean into that with the story. Looking forward to hearing and hopefully incorporating some of those ideas.

I hope this works out. But if I may offer some advice from my own experience? Give the party exactly what you promise them. If they are interested in kicking off a campaign, and this serves as the starting adventure? Awesome! Let it build. But if they are initially expecting a one-shot that you hope will kick off a campaign? Give them a complete story in one session with a satisfying conclusion. It's great to have a plan for turning it into a campaign, but don't go into it with this expectation if the players aren't already expecting this to be session 1 of many right out of the gate.

Point well taken and know that it is indeed my intention to have a real ending for this one-shot. I'm more thinking that if we move into a longer campaign (I do have interest in that from at least my wife and the newest edition to the party), they will be able to look back at the story from the one-shot and see how it also fits into that larger picture/scheme. And if I wind up with none of them in this future campaign I'm mapping, it won't be a critical part that feels missed.

Six people is a big group. So a one-shot will probably need three encounters, four at absolute most and only if the players can run long. By encounters I mean major scenes where the party either engages in meaningful social exchanges with meaningful consequences, a combat scenario, or both.

This aligns with one of my biggest takeaways from the previous one-shot, namely that I had too much content to cover. That campaign had what I would classify as 6 major encounters and it was just way too much to cover in one sitting (especially given the newness of it all for the group). I ultimately cut one of them and glossed over another on the fly and it ended up feeling extremely rushed towards the end and I wasn't happy with how that came across to the table. Your note on getting that finale contextualization is well received and looking back is likely one of the biggest misses from my first go around. I'm not sure I ever appreciated how big a part pacing was from a DM perspective until living it. The good news is, I get to live and learn and get a little bit better for the next go-around.