How much?

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I Have Questions
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Re: How much?

Post by I Have Questions »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:49 pm
No, my position is that NATO, and the American foreign policy of foreign aid and military interventionism, is a hugely detrimental money sink, especially considering the size of the deficit.
The United States had $699 billion in total bilateral trade with the European Union in 2015. That trade can occur only if the key ports and airfields supporting it are secure. NATO contributes significantly to that security.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-dept ... e-numbers/

I guess you could limit trade to just internal stuff, right?
US foreign direct investment in Europe was $2.89 trillion, while foreign direct investment from Europe in the United States totaled approximately $2.49 trillion.
It appears to be less of a one way street than you are portraying Shades.
Every day, between two thousand and three thousand airline flights cross the North Atlantic.40 Again, NATO contributes to the security on which those flights rely.
Americans can just stay at home and holiday within the United States, right?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Gadianton
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Re: How much?

Post by Gadianton »

Shades wrote:So, the money wasn't "generated," it was simply reallocated to those involved with supplying or otherwise working for the armaments industry. If you're not one of them, then you're not benefitting from others' tax dollars.
That's not true. Who the money goes to is secondary to the fact that it goes somewhere. If the US hadn't got involved in WW2, the US would have remained in the Great Depression (to answer an other point you suggested). Along with your fiscal responsibility model, you need an macroeconomic model to go with it that is thus far untested by any real nation. I'm not saying that the growing deficit isn't a problem, I'm saying your simplistic fixes aren't necessarily fixes. For instance, in a multi-polar world where the US dollar and the US is no longer the only game in town, our capacity for debt may be substantially less. You don't actually know what the tradeoffs are in terms of our debt for the isolationist scenario.
So, if you have a family of four (for example) living in your home, that's $811.92 that your family could've NOT paid in taxes if the U.S.A
Good lord, the things I could have done with that 203$ that will forever be lost to me. I'm mad as hell. I think you and Ceebs are well on your way to approximating the number of folks who could have been housed for that money.

Ceebs agreeing with you is the only time I've ever seen Republicans suggest that deficit spending should be used to hire teachers and build houses for poor people. As soon as spending for Ukraine gets brought up, all the Republicans are suddenly progressive Democrats who want to go into debt feeding the homeless.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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canpakes
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Re: How much?

Post by canpakes »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:49 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:02 am
Of the $68 billion in military and related assistance Congress has approved since Russia invaded Ukraine, almost 90 percent is going to Americans, one analysis found.
That quote ignores the fact that the money being spent was siphoned out of the pockets of Americans to begin with. If not through taxation, then through borrowing money, a.k.a. deficit spending, which will need to be paid back at some point.
Sure. I understand how taxation works. And money doesn’t grow on trees. We have to turn the money printer on for that.

So, the money wasn't "generated," it was simply reallocated to those involved with supplying or otherwise working for the armaments industry. If you're not one of them, then you're not benefitting from others' tax dollars.
Absolutely. But the implication is that this money is going somewhere other than being reallocated into US hands, when in fact it’s largely the case that it’s feeding into the US economy.

Let's break the figures down: Your quote says that $68 billion was sent to Ukraine. The U.S.A. has roughly 335 million people living in it. $68,000,000,000 ÷ 335,000,000 = $202.98 (rounded down to the nearest penny) for every man, woman, and child. So, if you have a family of four (for example) living in your home, that's $811.92 that your family could've NOT paid in taxes if the U.S.A. had adopted a non-interventionist stance.
We could redirect that money to Americans in other ways. I suppose that we could help pay down student loan debt, as example. But you and Ceeboo may need to distance yourselves from your current political ideologies a bit more if you’re starting to talk about doing that, or giving houses away to homeless people, because those sorts of things are icky socialism, and homeless losers certainly don’t deserve free houses for making bad financial decisions or being addicts. I didn’t find that proposal within the Project 2025 handbook, anyway.

The problem with ‘MAGA’ and ‘America First’ is that it only applies to the person making the list. It’s better described as, ‘Me First’. There are a lot of folks making their own list, and their priorities won’t be yours. How do you resolve that?

Our incoming Administration’s priorities are all about launching a deportation program that some smart folks are calculating will cost around $88 billion dollars per 1 million people deported. What does America benefit from spending to remove working people who are arguably contributing to the economy, in order to toss them across the border? Even if the program costs a third less than estimated, that’s $202.98 (rounded down to the nearest penny) for every man, woman, and child. If you have a family of four (for example) living in your home, that's $811.92 that your family could've NOT paid in taxes if the U.S.A. had adopted a non-deportation stance.

Then repeat that 10 more times.
Dr Exiled
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Re: How much?

Post by Dr Exiled »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:36 am
Dr. E wrote:Trump negotiating a peace between Russia and Ukraine is a good thing
I think you mean Trump coercing a ceasefire, not Trump bringing peace. Trump might be able to temporarily force an end to the conflict at the threat of no more weapons for Ukraine and buy Russia a few years to recover so that they can try again.

One possibility where Trump might become an accidental hero is if he forces the peace deal at the threat of no more support for Ukraine, but then Russia can't switch away from a wartime economy and sustains catastrophic economic decline such that they need many more years to recover and in that time, Europe can take over aiding Ukraine.
Maybe or maybe the devil Mearsheimer is correct about our provocations. The Russians don't want Ukraine in NATO yet we continually pushed it and are still pushing it. Perhaps let's back away from that, get a cease fire, let the Germans build back their economy and see if we can have a peaceful coexistence? All that I'm saying, is give peace a chance ...
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
I Have Questions
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Re: How much?

Post by I Have Questions »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm
The Russians don't want Ukraine in NATO yet we continually pushed it and are still pushing it.
I think that’s at the heart of the Russian aggression. NATO creeping forward into Scandinavia and parts of what used to be the USSR is clearly seen by Putin as an existential threat to the Motherland. They swallowed the break up of the USSR, but don’t want to cede those border states to NATO. From their perspective you can see the issue.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Dwight
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Re: How much?

Post by Dwight »

Mwahahaha

Finland and Sweden to not provoke Russia stayed out of NATO. It was only after the Ukraine war and Russia’s aggression that support could actually make it possible. The cause and the effect are completely reversed. Russia’s invasion of Crimea changed Ukraine’s opinion of EU and NATO membership. They had been friendly but had wanted to remain neutral. Then Russia invaded and suddenly they were looking for friends.

Sweden has been an ally of the US for a long while and even passed a signal intelligence law called FRA at the back channel behest of the US to help with signal intelligence in the Baltics.
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canpakes
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Re: How much?

Post by canpakes »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm
The Russians don't want Ukraine in NATO yet we continually pushed it and are still pushing it.
What does Ukraine want?

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm
All that I'm saying, is give peace a chance ...
Who invaded what?
Dr Exiled
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Re: How much?

Post by Dr Exiled »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:31 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm
The Russians don't want Ukraine in NATO yet we continually pushed it and are still pushing it.
What does Ukraine want?

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:09 pm
All that I'm saying, is give peace a chance ...
Who invaded what?
The Ukraine is way overdo for an election that Zelenski cancelled. Maybe if there were an election the Ukrainians could let us know.

Regardless, should we not look for a peaceful solution? Or should we give the Ukrainians longer range missles so they can bomb Moscow and maybe start a nuclear exchange?
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: How much?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

ajax18 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:20 pm
He knows Trump is willing to use force.
I love how Trump is Schrodinger's war hawk amongst his fans. Both completely and totally antiwar, and also willing to sacrifice US troops in a heartbeat, at any given moment.
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canpakes
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Re: How much?

Post by canpakes »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2024 9:41 pm
The Ukraine is way overdo for an election that Zelenski cancelled. Maybe if there were an election the Ukrainians could let us know.

Regardless, should we not look for a peaceful solution? Or should we give the Ukrainians longer range missles so they can bomb Moscow and maybe start a nuclear exchange?
Surrender is a peaceful solution.

Is that what Ukraine wants?

(You missed answering ‘who invaded what’.)
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