Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[MG 2.0]

Every reason that your chatbot gave for Emma lying about polygamy could be adapted as reasons that she lied about the plates. Wouldn’t you agree?

Not necessarily. There may have been other factors that are involved besides simply presupposing that once=twice.

Many of the same reasons that might have motivated Emma Smith to lie about polygamy could potentially apply to her statements about the Book of Mormon translation and the gold plates. However, there are a few additional factors to consider that might suggest that she was telling the truth in this case:

* Consistency with other witnesses: While Emma Smith is the only witness who claimed to have felt the plates through a cloth, several other witnesses claimed to have seen the plates directly. If Emma was lying about the plates, she would have needed to coordinate her story with these other witnesses, which would have been difficult to do.

* Lack of motive: Unlike with polygamy, it's less clear what Emma might have gained by lying about the plates. If she was aware that Joseph was making up the story of the plates, she would have had little reason to go along with it, given the potential consequences.

* Emma's initial skepticism: According to some accounts, Emma was initially skeptical of Joseph's claims about the gold plates and the Book of Mormon translation. If she had been inclined to lie about the plates, it seems unlikely that she would have expressed skepticism early on.

* Emma's role as scribe: Emma served as a scribe for Joseph during the translation process, which means that she would have had a firsthand view of how the translation was taking place. If Joseph had been making up the story of the plates, it seems unlikely that Emma would have been able to observe the translation process and still maintain the lie.

* Consistency with other accounts: Emma's account of the translation process is generally consistent with other accounts from witnesses who observed the process, such as Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris.

-Pi A.I.

Regards,
MG

Original inquiry:

“Every reason that you gave for Emma lying about polygamy could be adapted as reasons that she may have lied about the plates. Wouldn’t you agree? Or should we consider other factors that might lead us to think she told the truth about the Book of Mormon translation and the plates?”

Are we good?

Regards,
MG

[Markk]

I haven't read much of the thread but as for reasons why Emma lied about polygamy one reason to ponder, and a simple one when you take a step back from reading all the accounts is that she did so for survival and protection of her family. Sorry if this was discussed.

We as Mormon's, if you grew up in the church picture these folks as fairy tale characters. Joseph dancing with his beloved Emma to eternity. When in fact it was the wild west. How many children did Emma lose early 3-4? Joseph did not have a steady income or trade. Lucy made a living showing the mummies. Sr. was a alcoholic. Factor in the money digging. These folks no doubt had terrible hygiene, and most likely were dirty and stunk by our standards today.

After Joseph died, so did the con, cash cow, ministry, church support, you choose, that provided for Emma and her family. After the splits, they did not run as the Brighamites did moving west to a lawless frontier where polygamy could be practiced. In no way could they have stayed where they did and support and practice polygamy, which was against the Illinois law. Also the cat was out of the bag in regard to Joseph and Polygamy, the Expositor, Bennett's slander( or truth?) ....etc. Emma most likely had no viable option other than to lie about it.

Emma for basic survival reasons, with her provider dead, became the provider for her family. She was pregnant with David. or he was just born at the time of Joseph's murder and she needed to eat and provide shelter and food for her family. The church was in turmoil with multiple splits by the leadership.

I could give many more examples like these as could anyone knowing the history of all this. Also add that she hated polygamy and was not understandably a believer of it as a practice and doctrine. And who knows her mental state, she was no doubt a mess, yet had not the option to greave and process what occurred.

My one sentence answer as to why she denied polygamy is "Because she had to, and wanted to."

[MG 2.0]

I haven't read much of the thread but as for reasons why Emma lied about polygamy one reason to ponder, and a simple one when you take a step back from reading all the accounts is that she did so for survival and protection of her family. Sorry if this was discussed.

We as Mormon's, if you grew up in the church picture these folks as fairy tale characters. Joseph dancing with his beloved Emma to eternity. When in fact it was the wild west. How many children did Emma lose early 3-4? Joseph did not have a steady income or trade. Lucy made a living showing the mummies. Sr. was a alcoholic. Factor in the money digging. These folks no doubt had terrible hygiene, and most likely were dirty and stunk by our standards today.

After Joseph died, so did the con, cash cow, ministry, church support, you choose, that provided for Emma and her family. After the splits, they did not run as the Brighamites did moving west to a lawless frontier where polygamy could be practiced. In no way could they have stayed where they did and support and practice polygamy, which was against the Illinois law. Also the cat was out of the bag in regard to Joseph and Polygamy, the Expositor, Bennett's slander( or truth?) ....etc. Emma most likely had no viable option other than to lie about it.

Emma for basic survival reasons, with her provider dead, became the provider for her family. She was pregnant with David. or he was just born at the time of Joseph's murder and she needed to eat and provide shelter and food for her family. The church was in turmoil with multiple splits by the leadership.

I could give many more examples like these as could anyone knowing the history of all this. Also add that she hated polygamy and was not understandably a believer of it as a practice and doctrine. And who knows her mental state, she was no doubt a mess, yet had not the option to greave and process what occurred.

My one sentence answer as to why she denied polygamy is "Because she had to, and wanted to."

When it comes to whether or not Emma lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the plates we have to somehow get past the testimony given to Joseph Smith III.

https://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files ... 0smith.pdf

Why would she lie to him?

As it is, we are looking through a glass darkly. We have various ‘evidences’ that have been recently posted… thanks A.I. ! … that show various ways of looking through the rather opaque glass of Mormon history.

You have given a bird’s eye view of some of the reasons that you lost your testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet. As you well know, there is the opposite side of the coin. Many who gave positive testimony of the Smith family and Joseph as being hard working and religious seekers for truth.

The difference between us is simply that I believe God answered Joseph’s prayer and later called him as the prophet of the restoration and bestowed upon him divine authority and you don’t. I believe that it is true that God calls upon the weak things of the world to do his work. Joseph is an example. It was God who made him great while also setting up a situation by which he would be known for good and evil.

We are then left to choose one way or the other. Did God do His work through this unlearned farmboy or did He not?

I believe He did. I think the fruits demonstrate this to be so. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

On a board such as this one it is impossible to do a ‘deep dive’ into all of this. You have gone your way and I have gone mine. We both have what we believe to be valid reasons for doing so. At the end of the day we can only shake hands, so to speak, and look at each other as fellow truth seekers and have respect for one another’s beliefs.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...On a board such as this one it is impossible to do a ‘deep dive’ into all of this...

You are kidding, right? That's exactly what this board does!

...in fact it was the wild west. How many children did Emma lose early 3-4? Joseph did not have a steady income or trade. Lucy made a living showing the mummies. Sr. was a alcoholic. Factor in the money digging. These folks no doubt had terrible hygiene, and most likely were dirty and stunk by our standards today.

After Joseph died, so did the con, cash cow, ministry, church support, you choose, that provided for Emma and her family. After the splits, they did not run as the Brighamites did moving west to a lawless frontier where polygamy could be practiced. In no way could they have stayed where they did and support and practice polygamy, which was against the Illinois law. Also the cat was out of the bag in regard to Joseph and Polygamy, the Expositor, Bennett's slander( or truth?) ....etc. Emma most likely had no viable option other than to lie about it.

Emma for basic survival reasons, with her provider dead, became the provider for her family....

I could give many more examples like these as could anyone knowing the history of all this. Also add that she hated polygamy and was not understandably a believer of it as a practice and doctrine. And who knows her mental state, she was no doubt a mess, yet had not the option to greave and process what occurred.

My one sentence answer as to why she denied polygamy is "Because she had to, and wanted to."

That's a very astute assessment about the challenges Emma faced, thank you. It's a valuable reminder of the impact of the LDS church on people's lives.

[I Have Questions]

When it comes to whether or not Emma lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the plates we have to somehow get past the testimony given to Joseph Smith III.

Why do we have to get past the testimony given to Joseph Smith III?

Why would she lie to him?

A list of suggestions as to why Emma might lie has already been given.

As it is, we are looking through a glass darkly.

No, we aren’t. We’re examining the available evidence.

We have various ‘evidences’ that have been recently posted… thanks A.I. !

The dangers of taking A.I. as a source for information have already been explained to you, why isn’t it sinking in?

We are then left to choose one way or the other. Did God do His work through this unlearned farmboy or did He not?

I believe He did. I think the fruits demonstrate this to be so. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Unfortunately the KJV Bible plagiarism in the Book of Mormon shows the “fruit” to be corrupt. Therefore, by your logic, Joseph is corrupt.

At the end of the day we can only shake hands, so to speak, and look at each other as fellow truth seekers and have respect for one another’s beliefs.

I respect your right to ignore the KJV Bible plagiarism in the Bible which objectively shows the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be.

[I Have Questions]

After Joseph died, so did the con, cash cow, ministry, church support, you choose, that provided for Emma and her family. After the splits, they did not run as the Brighamites did moving west to a lawless frontier where polygamy could be practiced. In no way could they have stayed where they did and support and practice polygamy, which was against the Illinois law. Also the cat was out of the bag in regard to Joseph and Polygamy, the Expositor, Bennett's slander( or truth?) ....etc. Emma most likely had no viable option other than to lie about it.

Emma for basic survival reasons, with her provider dead, became the provider for her family....

This.

[MG 2.0]

...On a board such as this one it is impossible to do a ‘deep dive’ into all of this...

You are kidding, right? That's exactly what this board does!

Not by a long shot.

...in fact it was the wild west. How many children did Emma lose early 3-4? Joseph did not have a steady income or trade. Lucy made a living showing the mummies. Sr. was a alcoholic. Factor in the money digging. These folks no doubt had terrible hygiene, and most likely were dirty and stunk by our standards today.

After Joseph died, so did the con, cash cow, ministry, church support, you choose, that provided for Emma and her family. After the splits, they did not run as the Brighamites did moving west to a lawless frontier where polygamy could be practiced. In no way could they have stayed where they did and support and practice polygamy, which was against the Illinois law. Also the cat was out of the bag in regard to Joseph and Polygamy, the Expositor, Bennett's slander( or truth?) ....etc. Emma most likely had no viable option other than to lie about it.

Emma for basic survival reasons, with her provider dead, became the provider for her family....

I could give many more examples like these as could anyone knowing the history of all this. Also add that she hated polygamy and was not understandably a believer of it as a practice and doctrine. And who knows her mental state, she was no doubt a mess, yet had not the option to greave and process what occurred.

My one sentence answer as to why she denied polygamy is "Because she had to, and wanted to."

That's a very astute assessment about the challenges Emma faced, thank you. It's a valuable reminder of the impact of the LDS church on people's lives.

I’m not quite sure where you are going with this. I attended a funeral this morning for a gentleman who was in our ward. He was a missionary in Japan sixty plus years ago and was moved over to Korea and helped establish and open up that mission to the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He later went back and served as a Mission President. The chapel and cultural hall were filled with people who recognized his life of service and the fruits that remained in the hearts and minds of those he served which then matured into generations of disciples of Jesus Christ.

The fruits of gospel living cannot be measured by the church’s critics, but those fruits remain and then implant in the hearts of others that desire to come unto Christ. When I saw the fruits (by implication in the fact that the commandments and covenants were being held and practiced by those in attendance) manifest in the lives of the many Saints that were there at the funeral, it amazed me, again, that the small seed back in the 1820’s and 1830’s has matured into a manifestation of the fruit Jesus talked about.

When you and I are referring to the impact or ‘fruits’ in the lives of LDS members that believe and move forward in faith I think we’re on a different wavelength altogether.

Regards,
MG

[Markk]

MG wrote-Why would she lie to him?

Well, why not? Joseph was having sex with who knows how many women. If my wife was having sex multiple of men, mostly behind my back, I could certainly see myself lying to my children about their mother, for their sakes alone. And we don't know if she was directly lying to him, for all we know it was orchestrated for reason for the reformed church membership, which is most likely the case with William, but maybe not so much with David.

Emma had a rough life, loosing at least three children early, two more as young adults, her cheating husband at an early age by our standards. She married another who cheated on her, and had a close relationship with his bastard child if I remember correctly (If I recall correctly). I think If I recall correctly, and you can correct me, she was more or less estranged from her Parents. She was punked big time by Brigham. She had to be a business women and liquidate Joseph's assets after his death, deal with two homes and a store, and I think even a river boat If I recall correctly. She had lots (land) in her name in Nauvoo, and being a matriarch to a religion and mother of a prophet. I think lying about Joseph's womanizing made perfect sense, trying to keep and manage all that.

What do you think the Reformed members of her church would think if she, having all that property that Joseph received as a prophet if she said she was married to 30 plus women and sexually active with at least some of them? Remember her church denied he was a polygamous, big time, why would she admit it a few months before her death after denying it all along?

On a board such as this one it is impossible to do a ‘deep dive’ into all of this. You have gone your way and I have gone mine. We both have what we believe to be valid reasons for doing so. At the end of the day we can only shake hands, so to speak, and look at each other as fellow truth seekers and have respect for one another’s beliefs.

I can certainly respect you, and I do, but I don't have to respect LDS teachings, I can't do that. It is okay for you to also reject the teaching of the Christian church, which in fact is doctrinal for a saint to do so....but we can respect each other and talk it out for sure, we have that agency as far as I am concerned. If we can 't disagree with each other and apply critical thought, then we really should not be on a forum like this.

MG wrote....The difference between us is simply that I believe God answered Joseph’s prayer and later called him as the prophet of the restoration and bestowed upon him divine authority and you don’t. I believe that it is true that God calls upon the weak things of the world to do his work. Joseph is an example. It was God who made him great while also setting up a situation by which he would be known for good and evil.

Well the main difference between LDS theology and Christian theology is that LDS theology is centered around man becoming a God, and that God was once a man, and that by good works worthy men can have the same power and knowledge as he does. Christian theology looks as that as blasphemy. Our difference starts there, and with me pretty much end there.

It is not a easy doctrine to admit and deal with, I get that. Let me ask you this, do you believe you have the potential and access to the authority to have all the power, authority, dominion and knowledge as HF and Jehovah? To know everything HF knows and do all the things that he has and will do?

[MG 2.0]

snip

Nothing to see here that hasn’t already been talked about. IHQ, I’m not sure what drives you to be here. A form of missionary work?

As a nonmember I would think that you would have other things to do with your life other than hang out on a board dissing the CofJCofLDS.

What’s up with that? The clock is ticking. Time to get along with your life?

As it is, I’ve already said why I’m here when I’m here.

What about you? What’s your purpose?

I would ask the same thing of Marcus. You have a family, right? You have a life I would assume. By the looks of it you are always ready to jump in and respond and be the critic. It’s like you’re always here.

What drives you?

Would you do this if you were a lapsed Catholic and this was a ‘bash Catholicism’ board?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...On a board such as this one it is impossible to do a ‘deep dive’ into all of this...

You are kidding, right? That's exactly what this board does!

Not by a long shot...

It helps to read what people post, including their links. There is so much to learn. Frequently, one also needs to read what one posts, particularly if one got it from a chatbot and one's chatbot disagrees with the opinions one has previously posted. Just a suggestion.

Seriously, though, there is so much information posted here regularly, across many, many topics. If you honestly don't think a 'deep dive' is done here, I feel bad for you. You miss so much.

You spend a tremendous amount of time here, so why come to a place you despise, only to disparage the discussion and information you encounter? What motivates you to do that? You frequently refer to lurkers, but surely you are aware what a negative impression you are giving them. Your hatred and disdain for those who believe differently than you will only resonate with those who already hate and despise. Do you do this to boost up your ego? Do you do it because you get attention here you can't get in your regular Mormon life?

What motivates you to come here to express your unrelenting disdain for those who believe differently than you?