Complex?

[I Have Questions]

So I’d be interested in what apologists think about this. Is the complexity of Brandon Sanderson’s writing evidence that Roshar is an actual planet and that these books are translations of actual ancient texts?

When apologists assert that Joseph wasn’t bright enough to produce something that they perceive as “complex” (whatever that means), it’s not part of a coherent, joined-up, apologetic. They are simply trying to stop people considering the notion that Joseph (a gifted story teller who had been creating and weaving narratives about the origins of the native Americans from a young age) was capable of being the author. They want you to mistakenly conflate the fact that Joseph struggled with the physical act of writing, with the idea that Joseph couldn’t create a story about where the native Americans came from.

Apologists tend to give the game away in that they produce apologetics for things they think are problematic. Just follow their apologetics and you’ll find the smoking guns - they are literally pointing you in their direction.

[Mag’ladroth]

It’s actually pretty easy to see how Joseph made it up.

• Common cultural idea based on a misreading of the exilic biblical texts that there was a “lost” tribe of Israel
• Mound Builders myth with traveling “lecturers” discussing this and ancient Egyptian mythos
• plagiarism of the KJV

That’s only a few things off the top of my head.

[I Have Questions]

It’s actually pretty easy to see how Joseph made it up.

• Common cultural idea based on a misreading of the exilic biblical texts that there was a “lost” tribe of Israel
• Mound Builders myth with traveling “lecturers” discussing this and ancient Egyptian mythos
• plagiarism of the KJV

That’s only a few things off the top of my head.

The Pilgrim’s Progress and View Of The Hebrews both appear to have been heavily plagiarised by Smith.

[IWMP]

I personally think that without him taking notes and writing drafts it maybe is "complex" enough to be considered inspired maybe. Not sure many people would be able to verbally dictate a book without careful planning.

[sock puppet]

I personally think that without him taking notes and writing drafts it maybe is "complex" enough to be considered inspired maybe. Not sure many people would be able to verbally dictate a book without careful planning.

Oral story fabricating/telling was a common past-time before radio and television, especially in areas where books were rather scarce. Today, we have with the internet and our smart phones inundations of facts and data and our minds are learning to ignore and not to retain the irrelevant. In that story-telling time, there was not so much data bombarding people, particularly a farm boy of an impoverished family. Given that there would not have been so much distracting information and story telling was a developed skill--and Lucy Mack Smith told us that Joseph was very good at regaling the family with his tales--it makes the feat of writing the Book of Mormon not so impressive.

[I Have Questions]

I personally think that without him taking notes and writing drafts it maybe is "complex" enough to be considered inspired maybe. Not sure many people would be able to verbally dictate a book without careful planning.

Winston Churchill, Henry James, Barbara Cartland, John Milton, Frederick Forsyth, Neil Gaiman, Kevin J. Anderson…

All prolific at crafting stories orally with less preparation time than Joseph had.

[Physics Guy]

Dictating something like the Book of Mormon in a short time might not be something just everyone feels confident to do, but far more people can easily do it than there have ever been true prophets, even according to believers in prophets. It is not complex in any way that makes it especially hard to compose.

[huckelberry]

It’s actually pretty easy to see how Joseph made it up.

• Common cultural idea based on a misreading of the exilic biblical texts that there was a “lost” tribe of Israel
• Mound Builders myth with traveling “lecturers” discussing this and ancient Egyptian mythos
• plagiarism of the KJV

That’s only a few things off the top of my head.

The Pilgrim’s Progress and View Of The Hebrews both appear to have been heavily plagiarised by Smith.

Question, I have heard those books listed as likely inspiration but am unaware of any actual plagiarism. Do you have examples or are you referring to sources of likely inspiration

[huckelberry]

I personally think that without him taking notes and writing drafts it maybe is "complex" enough to be considered inspired maybe. Not sure many people would be able to verbally dictate a book without careful planning.

Pirate, it seems very unlikely that Joseph had no notes or outline. It seems he was not directly reading off of them. That would get in the way of the story telling momentum.there were years of time for preparing.

[malkie]

I personally think that without him taking notes and writing drafts it maybe is "complex" enough to be considered inspired maybe. Not sure many people would be able to verbally dictate a book without careful planning.

Pirate, it seems very unlikely that Joseph had no notes or outline. It seems he was not directly reading off of them. That would get in the way of the story telling momentum.there were years of time for preparing.

Joseph apparently dictated for periods of time, perhaps hours at a time, with a scribe taking down what he said. Occasionally there might be a "witness" to this process.

Establishing the veracity of the rock-in-the-hat oral dictation to Book of Mormon text, with no notes or drafts would require disinterested observer controls, such as (not an exhaustive list!):

• How Joseph spent his time between dictating sessions - ensuring that he was not consulting notes, drafts, or helpers
• Whether what Joseph dictated was faithfully recorded, no more and no less
• Whether what was recorded appeared in the proofs of the Book of Mormon, no more and no less, and in the correct sequence

I'm not aware of any one of these three points being verified, though I might not need much persuasion that the proofs-to-print process was fairly solid.

Overall, I believe that there are too any potential "holes" in the process for anyone to be sure that the translation account holds up from end to end.