WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Markk]

Morley: Even your reading of Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich would have made it pretty clear that the Holocaust was rooted in Nazi ideology from the very beginning. (And Shirer wrote before they found the troves of damning Nazi documents.) Heh, the plan for the final solution even has its roots in Mein Kampf.

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

When the war started they had six concentration camps, mainly started for political prisoners. By 1944 they had over 1000 camps, including main camps and smaller camps. Auschwitz was a army barracks, and was converted to a concentration camp after the invasion, and it wasn't until 1942 that Jews were sent there and gassed.

I don't recall the name of a book I read about the SS and the early days of extermination. But it read that, under Himmler, who was timid and had a weak stomach himself, the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews before they started gassing them. Alcoholism and morale were real problems here. It was then that gas became the way. They started to experiment with gas vans and smaller chambers around 1941, then in '42 they went full force with the gas...in those early days they starved and worked the Jews to death, or just shot them.

Cooper's point was at the beginning of the war they were not ready for all the POWs and Jews. When they invaded Poland the Germans, basically overnight, had 3 million Jews to deal with. And again they had six camps. They took around 400k Polish POWs. They took 2 million French POWs in the Battle for France 6 months or so later. Then Barbarossa, they had by early 1942 3.5 Million Russian POWs.

War to a great degree is reactionary, despite planning.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

DLB Post

Delub post?

[Chap]

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

Makes you feel quite sorry for the Nazis, doesn't it? They had this wonderful idea of ridding Germany and indeed all Europe from the dreadful scourge of Jewish tailors, university professors, shopkeepers <insert all other social roles here>, and when they came to power they just didn't have time to do it in an orderly manner. So the poor things were forced, absolutely forced, into shoveling people into gas chambers, because otherwise they would all have been terribly upset by having to kill Jews on a person to person basis. I mean, some of them might have become quite ill from the strain and overwork. So they really had no alternative.

By the way, I love the phrase "gradual, in a short time"!

[huckelberry]

Cooper's point was at the beginning of the war they were not ready for all the POWs and Jews. When they invaded Poland the Germans, basically overnight, had 3 million Jews to deal with. And again they had six camps.

Why did they have Jews to deal with?

Rhetorical question of course. We all know why. But one might wonder if there is any similarity to the problems the US has.

[Gadianton]

...Technical Histories like the Rise and Fall of the Third Rich I read early on...

In that case you've proven me wrong, since I did not believe you had ever read a book outside of what's available in the book department of your local Christian mega church.

What is it that you've learned from Cooper that you didn't know already, having read this and many other books? What is it that you feel better informed about, having studied Cooper -- because you're getting really defensive about his good name -- that you had not come to realize having read all of these other books?

[Morley]

Morley: Even your reading of Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich would have made it pretty clear that the Holocaust was rooted in Nazi ideology from the very beginning. (And Shirer wrote before they found the troves of damning Nazi documents.) Heh, the plan for the final solution even has its roots in Mein Kampf.

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

When the war started they had six concentration camps, mainly started for political prisoners. By 1944 they had over 1000 camps, including main camps and smaller camps. Auschwitz was a army barracks, and was converted to a concentration camp after the invasion, and it wasn't until 1942 that Jews were sent there and gassed.

I don't recall the name of a book I read about the SS and the early days of extermination. But it read that, under Himmler, who was timid and had a weak stomach himself, the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews before they started gassing them. Alcoholism and morale were real problems here. It was then that gas became the way. They started to experiment with gas vans and smaller chambers around 1941, then in '42 they went full force with the gas...in those early days they starved and worked the Jews to death, or just shot them.

Cooper's point was at the beginning of the war they were not ready for all the POWs and Jews. When they invaded Poland the Germans, basically overnight, had 3 million Jews to deal with. And again they had six camps. They took around 400k Polish POWs. They took 2 million French POWs in the Battle for France 6 months or so later. Then Barbarossa, they had by early 1942 3.5 Million Russian POWs.

War to a great degree is reactionary, despite planning.

So, what you're suggesting is that Cooper is saying that the Nazis were not so evil as incompetent. With your background of having read so widely, I don't see how you can assign even a sliver of credibility to that argument. The Nazis were intentionally evil, and that they bumbled their intended genocide is no surprise. The Nazis always intended to rid the world of Jews, homosexuals, and Gypsies--and that they may have fumbled the task does not relieve them of any responsibility. Cooper, and the sycophantic Carlson, are clearly suggesting that it does. They are not revealing some unknown-until-now theory of the Holocaust. They're following the tired old neo-Nazi apologetic playbook. (Again, with your knowledge of WWII history, you surely know this.)

The conclusion you reference that "the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews, before they started gassing them" and that "alcoholism and morale" were real problems for them, are quite the statements. I can't begin to imagine such suffering. Thank god they came up with the gas chambers. Maybe alcoholism and poor morale were not such problems after that. I join Chap in expressing profound sympathy for those poor Nazi sons of bitches.

Again, Markk, you've got to be kidding me. Maybe you want to walk some of this back?

[fixed typo]

[Markk]

Yes. But according to Cooper it was also gradual, in a short time. It is not like there was 100 years to put this together. Hitler started his rise in what 1920, he went to prison and was the party leader in around 1925, and Fuhrer by 1934, and dead by 1945. That's just 25 years Morley of making this all happen, and practically only about a dozen years with real power to start to implementing it.

Makes you feel quite sorry for the Nazis, doesn't it? They had this wonderful idea of ridding Germany and indeed all Europe from the dreadful scourge of Jewish tailors, university professors, shopkeepers <insert all other social roles here>, and when they came to power they just didn't have time to do it in an orderly manner. So the poor things were forced, absolutely forced, into shovelling people into gas chambers, because otherwise they would all have been terribly upset by having to kill Jews on a person to person basis. I mean, some of them might have become quite ill from the strain and overwork. So they really had no alternative.

By the way, I love the phrase "gradual, in a short time"!

Lol, Chap try to have an ounce of objectivity in trying understand what Cooper was saying, and his view, right or wrong, of what occurred.

From the time Hitler came into full power until his death was about 10 years, and "gradually" in that "short time," which was Hitler's so-called "1000 Year Reich," is all the time he had to take over Eastern Europe and Russia, and the communist threat. Cooper's assertion was that they, the Nazis, not just Hitler, were not ready in 1939, in regard to concentration camps, POW camps, and exactly how they were going to carry out the plan, and even a plan to invade western Europe.

He further asserted that Hitler's "plan" was not to have the European front, in that he did not want to invade France and attack the UK, and did not expect England and France to declare war on Germany three days after they invaded Poland.

After the invasion of Poland, Hitler issued Führer-Directive No. 6 in October, which because of France and Britain declaring war, he had his generals and planners plan for the invasion of France, Belgium, and Holland, and that after doing so setting up air bases for the Luftwaffe to begin their air campaign against England.

This period of time between the invasion of Poland and the invasion of France is called the phony war, in that there was a lull in the fighting while planning and preparations took place.

https://battle-of-britain-diary.org.uk/ ... f-the-war/

This is part of the history, do you want to just hide it?

Trying to somehow insist that Cooper, and now me condone the Holocaust just shows your inability to read and understand the history behind it. You can disagree with Cooper's opinions of why, but to just twist what he said and ignore the history behind his opinion just shows your inability to even try to understand what occurred, and why.

[Morley]

Chap's not twisting anything.

No one is saying that Cooper condoned the Holocaust. They're saying that by soft-peddling the reasons for the Holocaust, Cooper's enabling neo-Nazi apologetics.

It's not just people in this thread, this reaction to the interview was pretty widespread.

[Markk]

...Technical Histories like the Rise and Fall of the Third Rich I read early on...

In that case you've proven me wrong, since I did not believe you had ever read a book outside of what's available in the book department of your local Christian mega church.

What is it that you've learned from Cooper that you didn't know already, having read this and many other books? What is it that you feel better informed about, having studied Cooper -- because you're getting really defensive about his good name -- that you had not come to realize having read all of these other books?

What is ironic is you display yourself as a Nazi more that anyone here, just exchange the word Christian for Jew and it proves that point. Your hatred is apparent and I get you hate Christians and people like me and Ceeboo.

Cooper shows history in a way that many historians miss. One thing I learned from listening to his podcast, was in regard to Jim Jones, that lends to his style, is that Jones was a Civil Rights leader before he went nuts. He stated if Jones were to have been hit by a bus and killed in 1960-ish, he would have went down as a great civil rights pioneer.

Does that make him a Jim Jones lover or apologist....no, not at all, it shows how a person with good intentions grew to become a warped psychopath.

I am not getting defensive at all in the context you are trying to spin. I didn't even bring him up, Cakes did. I am calling you out for just reading some left with post, and cutting and pasting a lie.

As I wrote, I don't agree with every conclusion that he or Tucker comes up with, but I can draw and take out things I do agree with. In this case, Germany was not ready for what was about to occur.

[Markk]

Morley: So, what you're suggesting is that Cooper is saying that the Nazis were not so evil as incompetent

No....Cooper insists that the Holocaust was horrible, and Nazis were evil. He also shows that their plan was not as well thought out as History often portrays, and that people like the Nazis were not born evil Nazi killers, and tries to shows what occurred to turn them into stone cold murderers and pure evil.

He also points to some that were, at a young age evil and psychopaths, which is a different rabbit trail for another day.

With your background of having read so widely, I don't see how you can assign even a sliver of credibility to that argument. The Nazis were intentionally evil, and that they bumbled their intended genocide is no surprise. The Nazis always intended to rid the world of Jews, homosexuals, and Gypsies--and that they may have fumbled the task does not relieve them of any responsibility. Cooper, and the sycophantic Carlson, are clearly suggesting that it does. They are not revealing some unknown-until-now theory of the Holocaust. They're following the tired old neo-Nazi apologetic playbook. (Again, with your knowledge of WWII history, you surely know this.)

Did I say otherwise? The Nazi party was birthed in 1920; it ended 25 years later. Are you saying in say 1910, as an example, Himmler, one of the most evil men who ever existed, hated Jews and wanted to exterminate every last one of them? If you read his bio he did not start digging into the Nazi propaganda until around 1921 or so. Do you believe historians should paint him as such? If he had good in him at a early age, should a historian paint over that? I don't know, you tell me. Cooper believes they shouldn't.

Yes Morley, the Nazis wanted and attempted everything you said. I agree, they were murdering pigs.

The conclusion you reference that "the SS were suffering from having to shoot the Jews, before they started gassing them" and that "alcoholism and morale" were real problems for them, are quite the statements. I can't begin to imagine such suffering. Thank god they came up with the gas chambers. Maybe alcoholism and poor morale were not such problems after that. I join Chap in expressing profound sympathy for those poor Nazi sons of bitches.

How is telling the truth of what happened, sympathy? It is called history. There is so much written on this by countless authors; why are you picking out Cooper?

It is not a conclusion, it was a preclusion and again, the history of what happened.