WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Morley]

Cooper is not in any way saying the intent was not there, he talks about it....he is saying, like many, even Holocaust victims, that the Germans were not prepared for their sadistic extermination of some 11 million Jews.

Again this is the context of what Cooper said.

https://youtu.be/vOTgPEGYS2o?t=2798

He absolutely is suggesting that the intent was not there. This is not just the reading of everyone else on this thread, it’s the interpretation of news media and organizations all over the world.

Please correct me if I’m wrong—but even following the torrent of criticism that followed the interview, I don’t think that either Tucker or Darryl bothered to publicly say, “Golly, that’s not what we meant. We knew that the Nazis had this planned all along. Sorry if we gave some other impression.”

[Markk]

In 1942 they were still discussing this given the number of Jews that they wanted to murder, some 11 million.

For what it’s worth, it was about six-and-a-half million Jews. The rest were gays, Roma, artists, writers, and other undesirables.

No one knows for sure what the number was. But how many were gassed vs the other reasons I suggested?

[huckelberry]

I guess this means that once again you can't objectively deal with the actual history of what occurred. And just make it personal about those that share the truths with you.

Carry on.

Markk, I am aiming at a clarifying question instead of trading assumptions. What part of this history do you think people are avoiding? The race for preparedness for the conflict is well known. The phrase "phony war" is even covered in various TV documentaries. Dealing with Jews was handled poorly by both Germany and the US. Hitler misjudged the preparation needed to defeat Russia, cold turn of events. US traud a shake path with internal divisions.

[Morley]

You know, from all the history you’ve read, that the Nazis had the extermination planned from the beginning. Cooper is suggesting otherwise.

Edited typo.

No he didn't; he is saying they weren't prepared to implement mass murder... if I am wrong, and he isn't sure, then The Holocaust Encyclopedia, a very respected source, agrees it is not clear. Are these folks Neo-Nazis?

Establishment of Ghettos
The Germans began World War II by invading Poland in September 1939. The Nazi leaders then shifted priorities in anti-Jewish policy from expulsion from German-controlled territory to concentration of European Jewish populations in locations suited to future permanent removal. It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

As a temporary measure, while the top leadership considered long-term options, German authorities established ghettos in the Generalgouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) and in the District Wartheland, commonly called the Warthegau (an area of western Poland directly annexed to the German Reich). From late 1939, German SS and police authorities deported Polish, German, Austrian, and Czech Jews to these ghettos.

You’re right to correct me. The Nazi plans for dealing with the Jews evolved over time, becoming more and more radicalized as the war progressed. However, none of their plans had anything to do with being humane, as Cooper suggested. Gassing someone is not a humane solution to the problem of shooting them.

[Morley]

I agree with your last statement. The only reason it made news was because, Tucker Carlson, someone who should have known better, gave Cooper a platform. I expect more—from even the most partisan of pricks—than to give voice to neo-Nazi propaganda.

Morley, you are not even trying, and show you have no desire to understand what occurred.

Here read this....

The Germans began World War II by invading Poland in September 1939. The Nazi leaders then shifted priorities in anti-Jewish policy from expulsion from German-controlled territory to concentration of European Jewish populations in locations suited to future permanent removal. It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

As a temporary measure, while the top leadership considered long-term options, German authorities established ghettos in the General gouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) and in the District Wartheland, commonly called the Warthegau (an area of western Poland directly annexed to the German Reich). From late 1939, German SS and police authorities deported Polish, German, Austrian, and Czech Jews to these ghettos.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... %20ghettos.

Your reply above has nothing to do with what I wrote—and what you’re ostensibly replying to.

[Markk]

Cooper is not in any way saying the intent was not there, he talks about it....he is saying, like many, even Holocaust victims, that the Germans were not prepared for their sadistic extermination of some 11 million Jews.

Again this is the context of what Cooper said.

https://youtu.be/vOTgPEGYS2o?t=2798

He absolutely is suggesting that the intent was not there. This is not just the reading of everyone else on this thread, it’s the interpretation of news media and organizations all over the world.

Please correct me if I’m wrong—but even following the torrent of criticism that followed the interview, I don’t think that either Tucker or Darryl bothered to publicly say, “Golly, that’s not what we meant. We knew that the Nazis had this planned all along. Sorry if we gave some other impression.”

It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

What he said one more time, is that they were not ready for, or had a plan how to, and I'll quote what he said; ..."when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

Morley, he is not even strictly speaking about the Jews, but also Russian and Polish prisoners of war, and political prisoners....people. This isn't him saying anything other than what occurred from a historical point of view.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... %20ghettos.

[Markk]

No he didn't; he is saying they weren't prepared to implement mass murder... if I am wrong, and he isn't sure, then The Holocaust Encyclopedia, a very respected source, agrees it is not clear. Are these folks Neo-Nazis?

You’re right to correct me. The Nazi plans for dealing with the Jews evolved over time, becoming more and more radicalized as the war progressed. However, none of their plans had anything to do with being humane, as Cooper suggested. Gassing someone is not a humane solution to the problem of shooting them.

Cooper did not suggest that, come on Morley, he was quoting a letter to high command in Berlin stating it, as a "proof text" that the Germans were not prepared. He is not suggesting that gassing is humane, he is quoting a German Commandant that said it. And as I pasted in my last post, he was not even specifically directing the statement to the Jews, but to others as well.

And its not about correcting each other, it is about getting to the truth here.

Watch this and just give the guy a chance, you don't have to agree with everything he says, I certainly don't, but he does present history from a different view that is helpful to better understand what actually occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE9oFxGoMvE

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Edit: the image I posted was disinformation. My apologies.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

Here's one of many of similar responses to Mark from February in a flurry of related threads:

We've already seen lots of human rights violations, the worst being from Trump, but plenty to be had with Clinton and Obama. Fortunately I didn't vote for them or support them. But lets look at your personal playbook, your fantasy, the holocaust. Markkk, you personally face the same problem the Nazis did with mass deportations. It's difficult to move lots of people out from a country. One problem is that there must be other countries willing to take them. Hitler found out the hard way, not everyone wanted their refugees.

I understand very well that WW2 didn't start out with Hitler masterminding a Rube-Goldberg scenic route for the explicit purpose of gassing millions of Jewish people.

But, this isn't a case of arguing for second degree murder vs. first degree murder. In second degree murder, something else really bad was planned, but during a botched execution, the "fog of war" led to murder. It's still first degree murder. The gas chambers were extraordinarily planned out and systematically implemented for the sake of murdering people. It's the largest and most systematic first-degree murder operation in history. The fact that a bank robbery goes wrong due to lack of planning, and then because of that, the robbers now conspire and execute a witness who saw it, doesn't make them less bad. We often say when exploring the dark path of crime that one of the things that is so bad, is that once you get in deep, you can't easily get out, and you keep doing worse things. The fact that the Nazis kept digging themselves deeper in scaling atrocities makes them more bad, not less bad.

The gas chambers were implemented for efficiency, speed, and scale. It's quite possible that soldiers who carried out orders sometimes justified it to themselves as "better than shooting" just as soldiers justified shooting children because they were better off, considering the parents had also been shot.

It's staggering that Markk buys into this nonsense. I'm actually surprised, and that's the only reason I broke my streak of ignoring his vast ignorance. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I've jested about this interview in the past to our right-wingers, probably even Markk, and I just figured they ignore it because they're smart enough not to go there. Holy hell, guess I was wrong.

[Philo Sofee]

Dayyum. Russell M. Nelson could take a lesson from her on what makes a prophet accurate.......