WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 4:59 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 4:39 pm


Keep who alive?
The Jewish prisoners.

Who else would I or Cooper be referring to?
Did you read the transcript?
Cooper said..." Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it, that when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. ..."
These human beings were primarily Russian and Ukrainian POW's, political prisoners, communists, citizens, and Jews, among others. Some 500 thousand Russian POW were taken in Germany's march into the Soviet Union in the month alone. By the end of the war some 5 million were taken and the majority of those were worked to death, starved, shot....and gassed.

This is what I mean by you not listening to the podcast or even reading the transcript you linked. You do not even know what I am discussing and what Cooper said....and you provided the link to the conversation that again, you obviously did not read.

Just to add a bit of context here. Germany invaded Poland in September of 1939. The Warsaw Ghettos was established a year later in October of 1940, then as I discussed earlier, which you apparently ignored, Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, which Cooper was specifically addressing.
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:04 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 4:45 pm


That just dumb and show you are not reading what I wrote, and certain not answering my questions, which shows you have no opinion, just questions, which is your MO.

What is said over and over is that it is not clear. This all happened in about ten years. I have answered this question with a begging, middle and end up the Himmler given the task for that final solution. in late 41 if I remember correctly.

It's you turn, if you know a history I don't know about, go for it, tell me the history.
OK, is it fair to conclude that you believe that prior to the end or so of 1941, the Nazis still intended to release those Jewish prisoners they held (In other words, not already killed)?
No, I told you what I believe about ten times. It is unclear. They certainly wanted the Jews to immigrate out of Germany, and many did. And they certainly murdered others. I believe the history that it just was not clear.

They certainly encouraged Jews in Germany to immigrate to other countries, and they also murdered and persecuted them also. These are just facts.
This all evolved and I gave you my general opinion of a beginning of the Jewish question, the middle up until Wannsee, and the "Final Solution to the Final Question" after Wannsee.


It was not until Goring gave a written directive to Himmler and Heydrich in 41, and the latter held the Wannsee Conference where senior party leaders put together the implementation the "final solution" to the "Jewish question" in early 42. But there is no written directives or orders from Hitler.

This is my take at this point of my readings.

Apparently you have another position, and maybe at some point you will answer my questions. What is your view on this and how would you support it?
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 9:52 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:04 pm


OK, is it fair to conclude that you believe that prior to the end or so of 1941, the Nazis still intended to release those Jewish prisoners they held (In other words, not already killed)?
My post got lost , I thought the confusion was over what Cooper thought .

It does not seem likely that there was a unity at the beginning of the war, certainly not in the Germsn military. Likely the Nazi leadership saw the final solution but the means were uncertain

I just am puzzled as to how Nazi apologetic fits Coopers other views. He is positive about labor struggles Jim Jones racial program and socialized medicine. Perhaps Carlson influenced the path of the interview.
I agree, the German military, specifically the Wehrmacht were separate from the Nazi leadership and Himmler's SS. The SS TV I believe carried out he death squad's and ran the camps.

Paulus, called Hitler the Bohemian Corporal in that he was such a poor military leader....many key general had long standing disagreements with him.

The whole controversy with Cooper, as far as I can tell is that firstly, his podcast was with Carlson, and second, he made a dumb statement about Churchill being the chief villain of WW2 on a podcast he shares with another host, which he had to walk back.

The left wing press jumped all over this and made accusations that Tucker was hosting a Nazi apologist on his podcast.

People like cakes jumped on this and believed it without really reading or listing to the context of his Churchill remark, or test whether or not he was an actual Nazi apologists, which is far from the truth.

If anyone actually listened to Coopers podcasts you would know it was just a smear.
Marcus
God
Posts: 6753
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Marcus »

Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 11:45 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 9:52 pm
My post got lost , I thought the confusion was over what Cooper thought .

It does not seem likely that there was a unity at the beginning of the war, certainly not in the Germsn military. Likely the Nazi leadership saw the final solution but the means were uncertain

I just am puzzled as to how Nazi apologetic fits Coopers other views. He is positive about labor struggles Jim Jones racial program and socialized medicine. Perhaps Carlson influenced the path of the interview.
I agree, the German military, specifically the Wehrmacht were separate from the Nazi leadership and Himmler's SS. The SS TV I believe carried out he death squad's and ran the camps.

Paulus, called Hitler the Bohemian Corporal in that he was such a poor military leader....many key general had long standing disagreements with him.

The whole controversy with Cooper, as far as I can tell is that firstly, his podcast was with Carlson, and second, he made a dumb statement about Churchill being the chief villain of WW2 on a podcast he shares with another host, which he had to walk back.

The left wing press jumped all over this and made accusations that Tucker was hosting a Nazi apologist on his podcast.

People like cakes jumped on this and believed it without really reading or listing to the context of his Churchill remark, or test whether or not he was an actual Nazi apologists, which is far from the truth.

If anyone actually listened to Coopers podcasts you would know it was just a smear.
Incorrect. There have been posted here some very specific problems with Cooper's approach. Your summary minimizes the issues, and you have completely missed the point. Wow. I understand why people get so frustrated with you.
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2025 12:25 am
Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 11:45 pm


I agree, the German military, specifically the Wehrmacht were separate from the Nazi leadership and Himmler's SS. The SS TV I believe carried out he death squad's and ran the camps.

Paulus, called Hitler the Bohemian Corporal in that he was such a poor military leader....many key general had long standing disagreements with him.

The whole controversy with Cooper, as far as I can tell is that firstly, his podcast was with Carlson, and second, he made a dumb statement about Churchill being the chief villain of WW2 on a podcast he shares with another host, which he had to walk back.

The left wing press jumped all over this and made accusations that Tucker was hosting a Nazi apologist on his podcast.

People like cakes jumped on this and believed it without really reading or listing to the context of his Churchill remark, or test whether or not he was an actual Nazi apologists, which is far from the truth.

If anyone actually listened to Coopers podcasts you would know it was just a smear.
Incorrect. There have been posted here some very specific problems with Cooper's approach. Your summary minimizes the issues, and you have completely missed the point. Wow. I understand why people get so frustrated with you.
Did you read the transcript?

.
..." Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it, that when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that, and they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead. There you have letters as early as July, August, 1941, from commandants of these makeshift camps that they're setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering or people they're rounding up. So its two months after, a month or two after Barbarossa was launched, and they're writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, we can't feed these people.

[00:49:42]
We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off quickly now? And so this is like two months into the invasion. Right? And my view on this, I argue with my zionist interlocutors about this all the time with regard to the current war in Gaza. Look, man, maybe you, as the Germans, you felt like you had to invade to the east. Maybe you thought that Stalin was such a threat or that if he launched a surprise attack and seized the oil fields in Romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled and all of Europe would be under threat. And whatever it was, whatever it was, that, like, maybe you thought you had to do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that were going to come under your control, and millions of people died because of that. You can look at it and say, well, yeah.
https://www.happyscribe.com/public/the- ... ned-europe

Have you taken the time to read what he said? Have you studied the history at all, and tested it with what people on the net are saying?

It is easy to just criticize, it is another thing to objectively discuss something.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 3449
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by huckelberry »

To say Churchill is the villain is not an opps it screams. It does not say he drank too much or made serious errors in the first world War. It says it would have been better for Germany to expand eastward defeating Russia gaining large means to promote its program of vast murder clearing the lands for a pure Germsnic superpower.
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2025 1:11 am
To say Churchill is the villain is not an opps it screams. It does not say he drank too much or made serious errors in the first world War. It says it would have been better for Germany to expand eastward defeating Russia gaining large means to promote its program of vast murder clearing the lands for a pure Germsnic superpower.
I agree, and I said so in my OP. He did walk it back however, and he explained my he said it. Start at 55:25 where he talked about his drinking.

https://www.happyscribe.com/public/the- ... ned-europe

If you are interested start reading at 46:10 or you can listen to it which might make it a little more personal in context.

Cooper in my opinion is off on Churchill. But he is hardly a Nazi apologist as portrayed, just a Churchill hater I suppose.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 8642
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 11:17 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:04 pm
OK, is it fair to conclude that you believe that prior to the end or so of 1941, the Nazis still intended to release those Jewish prisoners they held (In other words, not already killed)?
No, I told you what I believe about ten times. It is unclear. They certainly wanted the Jews to immigrate out of Germany, and many did. And they certainly murdered others. I believe the history that it just was not clear.
<snip>
This is my take at this point of my readings.

Apparently you have another position, and maybe at some point you will answer my questions. What is your view on this and how would you support it?
Some Jews in camps initially had a very brief window to be granted a release, but release opportunities for Jewish prisoners were terminated in 1940, within several months after the invasion of Poland. I do not believe that after that point, there was ever going to be any resumption of releases, especially given the history of Nazis often killing their political prisoners even prior to 1940.

This obviously cannot be proven, but the eventual numbers killed support the conclusion, in my opinion.
Markk wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 11:45 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2025 9:52 pm
My post got lost , I thought the confusion was over what Cooper thought.
… The whole controversy with Cooper, as far as I can tell is that firstly, his podcast was with Carlson, and second, he made a dumb statement about Churchill being the chief villain of WW2 on a podcast he shares with another host, which he had to walk back.

The left wing press jumped all over this and made accusations that Tucker was hosting a Nazi apologist on his podcast.

People like cakes jumped on this and believed it without really reading or listing to the context of his Churchill remark, or test whether or not he was an actual Nazi apologists, which is far from the truth.
Strange that you say that I ‘jumped on this’ when my initial remark referring to the interview did not make an untrue or outlandish claim. And as you can read from the transcript, it reflects Cooper’s comments.

I still believe that his narrative about an ‘accidental holocaust’ initiated by concerned ‘Sad Nazis’ bemoaning the hunger of their prisoners and wanting to kill them for ‘humane’ reasons is both erroneous and dangerous. And Cooper’s take on Churchill (his ‘chief villain’ narrative, continuing for several minutes after the ‘humane’ remark) seems to disregard several other major factors and players in favor of focusing nearly completely on Churchill’s supposed deficiencies.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 7977
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Moksha »

Remember, defending Hitler is a win for Trump. Look no further than that as an explanation. Hitler and Trump can drive those progressives from the Confederate shores.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Markk
God
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:49 am

Re: WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

Post by Markk »

Cakes: Some Jews in camps initially had a very brief window to be granted a release, but release opportunities for Jewish prisoners were terminated in 1940, within several months after the invasion of Poland. I do not believe that after that point, there was ever going to be any resumption of releases, especially given the history of Nazis often killing their political prisoners even prior to 1940.

This obviously cannot be proven, but the eventual numbers killed support the conclusion, in my opinion.
I laid our for you my general view of 3 stages of the Jewish question, as viewed and dealt with by the Nazi leadership, and to a smaller extent others outside that circle. I have said a lot about that, over and over.

Now it appears you are finally starting see that there was no concrete plan for the Jewish Question. However there is a lot more to go through that I know about, and so much more to learn about that we will never know. The history that is out there is endless.

I will get a little more specific now in regard to what I called the "beginning" and " Middle" of how the Jewish Question might have been dealt with in those early years of the war, and even before. Remember it was only about ten years or so from the time that Hitler had absolute power, after Hindenburg died and he had complete power over Germany until he committed suicide in his bunker (Aug. 2 1934- April 30, 1945).

There is a lot to absorb on this for sure, and a lot to read about those beginning days leading up to the war, and the early days of the war. Hitler never gave a written order on the Final Solution, to the Jewish Question, but there are hints here and of the views being mixed. It was also not his sole ideology on this, it was blended in with those of others in the party.

As an example is the Madagascar plan, which Adolf Eichmann proposed to Hitler in a memo, that would have deported all the European Jews to Madagascar. This was in 1940. The idea was not Hitlers but a lawyer and Nazi official in the Party. Hitler approved to move forward with seeing if this plan was workable. Eichmann envisioned in the plan, to deport 1 million Jews a year to Madagascar.

There is a lot to this plan, and it depended on several things happening. There were pros, and cons discussed, and difficult to process all the data on this. It apparently depending on Germany defeating Britain for one, and their Naval blockades.. Madagascar was a French Colony, and victory in Europe's in the early war was critical to this plan. Others said there was just not enough logistical space to support Millions of people on the island.

The plan was canned in 1940-41 as the Germans went east. (note: I read also it was leaked in Italy, and the Americans knew about this plan, but I haven't read into that)

Point being it is really unclear, yet clear, that the Nazi high command had no settled plan, for the Jewish question, prior to Wannsee and the development of the Final Solution in early 1942.

There is also things like Goebbels diary that lend to different plans for the Jewish Questions, from deportation, to complete antihalation.

Again I think it is important for you to understand that there was until 1942, a "Jewish Question" and after the conference developing the Final Solution, it should be understood that the " Final Solution to the Jewish Question." I think it is important to note the "Jewish Question" was centuries old according to the history, when adds so much weight to the term "Final Solution."

But anyways it appears you are starting to see, and soften, that what Cooper spoke about is within reason and within the pale. And by your lack of comment you finally read what he actually said, and you now understand it was a comment not specific to the Jews, but at Germany not being prepared for millions of peoples, of all "kinds" that Germany was about to detain, and deal with.
Post Reply