NPR - Diversity

[Bret Ripley]

I don't think anyone seriously argues that the death and suffering inflicted upon the civilian population in Gaza has been orders of magnitude greater than the suffering inflicted by Hamas on October 7.

Of the tens of thousands killed in Gaza, approximately 60% have been women, children, and elderly folks. Additionally, several hundred aid workers have been killed by Israeli forces. (Aid workers includes doctors, nurses, paramedics, ambulance drivers, food distribution volunteers, etc.)

This by no means diminishes the atrocities inflicted upon Israeli citizens on October 7. It is only meant to highlight the asymmetry of Israel's response.

This is probably not a great analogy, but consider this: let's say a group of teenagers from a nearby apartment complex breaks into my home and murders several members of my family. Furthermore, I have reason to believe they may do so again. Question: what moral arguments can I cite as justification for burning down that apartment complex?

[Chap]

This is probably not a great analogy, but consider this: let's say a group of teenagers from a nearby apartment complex breaks into my home and murders several members of my family. Furthermore, I have reason to believe they may do so again. Question: what moral arguments can I cite as justification for burning down that apartment complex?

That comparison is not at all bad in terms of the disproportionality of what is going on in Gaza at present.

The terroristic attack of October 7 was an appalling aggression, and Israel had the clear right to retaliate to defend itself. But the actions of the IDF in Gaza show such clear violations of the obligations of an occupying power to the people of an occupied region under the Geneva Conventions that it looks very much as if (in accordance with the expressed wishes of some members of the Netanyahu cabinet) they intend to turn Gaza into an uninhabited heap of rubble, without a single care for the welfare of the people who live there.

[Kishkumen]

This is probably not a great analogy, but consider this: let's say a group of teenagers from a nearby apartment complex breaks into my home and murders several members of my family. Furthermore, I have reason to believe they may do so again. Question: what moral arguments can I cite as justification for burning down that apartment complex?

I can see Netanyahu arguing that the apartment complex and perhaps every other structure in the vicinity, with all of the occupants, must be bombed into oblivion. He would say that everyone there was complicit in the threat that resulted in the violence, would have done it themselves if they had the chance, and are probably planning to do it again in the near future, this time with advanced weaponry they are developing in their boiler rooms. If not, we all know these other occupants are cynically being used as human shields, and so they must be treated with equal cynicism by those who claim to feel threatened.

[Doctor Steuss]

I don't think anyone seriously argues that the death and suffering inflicted upon the civilian population in Gaza has been orders of magnitude greater than the suffering inflicted by Hamas on October 7.

Of the tens of thousands killed in Gaza, approximately 60% have been women, children, and elderly folks. Additionally, several hundred aid workers have been killed by Israeli forces. (Aid workers includes doctors, nurses, paramedics, ambulance drivers, food distribution volunteers, etc.)

This by no means diminishes the atrocities inflicted upon Israeli citizens on October 7. It is only meant to highlight the asymmetry of Israel's response.

This is probably not a great analogy, but consider this: let's say a group of teenagers from a nearby apartment complex breaks into my home and murders several members of my family. Furthermore, I have reason to believe they may do so again. Question: what moral arguments can I cite as justification for burning down that apartment complex?

Yesterday, Israel killed 8 kids and 2 women waiting at a US-based aid group's clinic to receive nutritional supplements. The reason for the clinic was to help prevent children dying because the IDF keeps intentionally shooting unarmed civilians at food distribution sites.

BBC Link

The UN reports from American, German, British, and Canadian doctors that have treated toddlers for wounds from sniper fire are absolutely horrendous.

I realize some people disagree, but having military snipers intentionally targeting toddlers isn't exactly just the "horrific realties of war" in my book. It's evil.

[Kishkumen]

Yesterday, Israel killed 8 kids and 2 women waiting at a US-based aid group's clinic to receive nutritional supplements. The reason for the clinic was to help prevent children dying because the IDF keeps intentionally shooting unarmed civilians at food distribution sites.

BBC Link

The UN reports from American, German, British, and Canadian doctors that have treated toddlers for wounds from sniper fire are absolutely horrendous.

I realize some people disagree, but having military snipers intentionally targeting toddlers isn't exactly just the "horrific realties of war" in my book. It's evil.

Maybe one of our resident Trump lovers can explain the bright side of this grim situation. Any takers? Snipers killing kids. Anyone?

[Gunnar]

There is absolutely no excuse for HAMAS to continue to hold on to any of the hostages, but neither is there any excuse for Israel to continue targeting humanitarian relief facilities helping starving children and their parents seeking desperately needed nutritional and medical assistance, especially considering the fact that up to 60% of the victims of these attacks, according to news sources, are women and children. Both HAMAS and Netanyahu's government are guilty of villainy in this conflict. Both sides have evil and selfish motives for continuing the conflict, as far as we can tell. By their undying hatred for each other, both sides are hurting both themselves and each other. Why is it so hard for any supposedly mature adults and leaders on either side to see that?

The fact that conflicts in religious ideologies seem to be an important motivation for both sides lends a lot of credence to Stephen Weinstein's famous quote:

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Some of the worst perpetrators of atrocities on both sides are ostensibly convinced that they are the "good guys" defending their own religion.

[Physics Guy]

Actual sniper shots rarely leave wounds that any doctor can treat. So we should focus on the fact that kids are getting shot, and not on the “snipers” part, which is probably not technically true.

The fact that children are getting shot is horrific enough. And there’s not much moral distinction between targeting a child deliberately and firing indiscriminately in a place where children have nowhere else to go.

[Doctor Steuss]

Actual sniper shots rarely leave wounds that any doctor can treat. So we should focus on the fact that kids are getting shot, and not on the “snipers” part, which is probably not technically true.

The fact that children are getting shot is horrific enough. And there’s not much moral distinction between targeting a child deliberately and firing indiscriminately in a place where children have nowhere else to go.

The report specified that the bodies of children were routinely brought into the European Hospital in Khan Younis with single high-caliber bullet wounds to the head or chest.

With one of the doctors in the report being described as a former military doctor who previously served in warzones, I tend to believe they'd be able to identify a sniper wound, vs. other types of small arms fire. It is certainly possible that they are equating the shot placement, as a deliberate targeting and using the term "sniper" non technically.

As an aside (since I was spelunking to make sure my memory wasn't too far off): The combined 5th/6th period report from the Committee on the Rights of the Child at the UN found that "children had consistently comprised around 40 per cent of the total fatalities in Gaza." It boggles my mind that people can simply shrug that off as just a regular unavoidable occurrence in modern wars.

[Gunnar]

Actual sniper shots rarely leave wounds that any doctor can treat. So we should focus on the fact that kids are getting shot, and not on the “snipers” part, which is probably not technically true.

The fact that children are getting shot is horrific enough. And there’s not much moral distinction between targeting a child deliberately and firing indiscriminately in a place where children have nowhere else to go.

Agreed!

[Physics Guy]

Right, the real point is that children are indeed getting shot, not exactly how it happens.

Any rifle shots in head or torso that are any more direct than a slight graze are instantly and obviously fatal. If a rifle wound is treatable, it's much more likely to have been a ricochet or a shot that came through a wall than it is to have been a deliberate hit from anyone, sniper or not. And treatable gunshot wounds are if anything much less likely to come from snipers than from other soldiers.

I really don't think that the evil in the Gaza war is a matter of expert Israeli snipers deliberately wounding and killing children. I think the evil is that throwing conscripted Israeli reservists into urban warfare with civilians present is like tossing a grenade into a kindergarten. Few if any of the victims may have been deliberately targeted as individuals, but the whole operation makes it inevitable that children will die—and so deciding to proceed with the operation is tantamount to deliberately killing a lot of children.