WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[huckelberry]

Markk, I am unsure how much to say of my father's experience. I do not think he would be comfortable with hero. He endured what had to be. Railsplitters yes, he was in the company that first attacked Lindern. Platoons made separate advances, the first making into the target. My father was in the second which did not. After getting shot up he was picked up by German soldiers, a matter perhaps more painful than the bullets. He has said that German doctor was professional and good. Of German guards he remembers their fear as they heard the approach of Russian artillery.

[Markk]

Markk, I am unsure how much to say of my father's experience. I do not think he would be comfortable with hero. He endured what had to be. Railsplitters yes, he was in the company that first attacked Lindern. Platoons made separate advances, the first making into the target. My father was in the second which did not. After getting shot up he was picked up by German soldiers, a matter perhaps more painful than the bullets. He has said that German doctor was professional and good. Of German guards he remembers their fear as they heard the approach of Russian artillery.

My father was late into the war in the pacific because of his age, he wanted to join early with his buddies but my grandmother would not sign permissions for that, so he did not get in until late 44.

He joined the Navy and was on a cargo ship as a radar operator. His battle station was a fire hose. But to me he was a hero, as were all the served.

Too me it sounds like your father was a true combat hero, and it also sounds like the war did not end for him that day, but stayed with him the rest of his life.

I have read a many biographical books and accounts from true combat heroes, whether decorated or not, and they never consider themselves a hero, and struggle with why they survived and the "person next to them did not." "Flags or our Fathers" is a good book on this. The movie is also good but nothing like the book.

The Russian Juggernaut was nothing to take lightly. As they were pushing army group center out of Belorussia in '44, the Russian artillery had 400 guns per mile on the line, in parts of their advancement. It is hard to even image what it would have been like to be on the wrong end of that. Stalin's organ included.

[Markk]

I sense more Hitler apologetics here, "what about Stalin??" Presumably, Stalin was worse because when he starved people, he had iron-clad plans that never failed, and so he can't say that he was unprepared.

Do people not know what the Hitdawg had in store for Slavs? If things had gone his way, they were next after the Jews; he viewed Slavs as inferior (racially, of course), and was going to rid himself of them to make way for Lebensraum. It was detailed in Mein Kampf, and semi-enacted with the Bararossa Plan with regard to his genocidal strategies. Wiping Slavs out entirely to secure German dominance in Eastern Europe was his most likely course of action.

Stlain, Stalin, Stalin!! Dude. Stalin was an amateur compared to what Hitler was actually doing and going to do.

- Doc

I would suggest further reading.

Both Hitler and Stalin were equally sadistic, although in different ways.

As an example Stalin in his purges against religion in the 30's, what he did is unspeakable. When he went through the Ukraine and starved out the peasants they are not even sure how many died, estimates range from 3 to 10 million, fact is no one really knows. Whole villages and towns just gone.

His purge against religion and those that opposed him is hard to even read or listen to. His henchman went through the churches and killed and tortured the religious leaders and killed tens of thousands of them. They raped women of about any age, and nailed them to doors and walls.

He and Hitler were monsters, and yet what they did does not compare to what Mao did, combined.

I certainly can't argue what Hitler would have done and did do, but also I can't argue what Stalin would have done and did do either.

[Markk]

I sense more Hitler apologetics here, "what about Stalin??" Presumably, Stalin was worse because when he starved people, he had iron-clad plans that never failed, and so he can't say that he was unprepared.

I think the subject was Finland fighting against Russia which at the time meant fighting with the Germans in support. I think Markk quite correct to point to the ongoing and long Finnish resistance to Russian aggression.

The reality of the large and crucial part Russia played in defeating Hitler has always presented difficulty in relating to the monstrous dimensions of Stalin’s rule. During the war much of that was not fully understood. Some of it was hidden or treated with blind eyes because of the war effort. I do not think it requires sympathy for Hitler to find Stalin's power dangerous. There was a war in the Pacific and Stalin had a large army in Europe. Nobody was in a position to force Stalin around very far.

Finnish resistance against Russia is understandable I think.

The Finns were in a tough position....Hitler or Stalin? They wanted to be neutral but Stalin made them more or less make a choice between communism or German Fascism. They paid for their decision after Germany was driven south, but again they really had no real choice.

If Stalin would not have purged his generals and officers in the 30's, and if Japan was not a threat on their eastern borders....Russia would have invaded west, before Hitler went east. Who knows.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

You would suggest I do more reading? That’s funny. Speaking of which, maybe you should read up on ‘Generalplan Ost’.

[Markk]

You would suggest I do more reading? That’s funny. Speaking of which, maybe you should read up on ‘Generalplan Ost’.

Okay we can certainly discuss it, and dig into it, and into what Stalin did and what his plans were. I am in no way saying Hitler was not a monster and had evil intentions, I am saying that Stalin was hardly an amateur as you asserted.

Let’s look at the Generalplan Ost for sure. And we can look at Stalin's first plan that started around 29, and the Holodomor and Collectivization. When Stalin exported Ukrainian food and produce for payment, while millions and millions starved to death, he also refused foreign aid for these starving Slavs. It was more of a class thing with him, but the outcome is the same in regard to murder.

So by the time Hitler put Generalplan Ost into effect, Stalin had already equaled or surpassed Hitler’s totals...but again no one really knows the real numbers.

I wrote some time ago on this thread it is like picking between Charlie Manson or Jack the Ripper....equally scum of the earth.

[huckelberry]

Markk, I can share your thought that all who served were heroes.

As the war was coming to its end, German soldiers hoped to surrender to Americans not Russians, for rather clear reasons.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

.. I am saying that Stalin was hardly an amateur as you asserted.

I did not assert that.

[Markk]

.. I am saying that Stalin was hardly an amateur as you asserted.

I did not assert that.

This is as you asserted....

Stalin, Stalin, Stalin!! Dude. Stalin was an amateur compared to what Hitler was actually doing and going to do.

viewtopic.php?p=2900468#p2900468

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yes. That’s what I said.

Edit, before Markk misunderstands further. The statement wasn’t meant to be taken literally. When I said, ‘Stalin was an amateur compared to what Hitler was actually doing and going to do,’ I was using a rhetorical device called hyperbole. Hyperbole is when you intentionally exaggerate something to make a point more forcefully.

I wasn’t claiming Stalin was literally an amateur. I know full well he was responsible for mass killings and brutal oppression. That’s a historical fact.

What I was doing was using deliberate exaggeration to emphasize the scale of what Hitler was already doing and especially what he planned to do if he had won the war. Hitler had genocidal plans for entire ethnic groups way beyond what most people understand. He had plans for the ‘lesser races’ once he had achieved global dominion. This earth was not for them to inherit.

So the phrase “Stalin was an amateur” wasn’t a factual comparison, it was a figure of speech to underline how far-reaching and catastrophic Hitler’s goals were. That’s what hyperbole does: it amplifies an idea for emphasis, not precision.

- Doc