The “mentalese” translation theory

[I Have Questions]

I do not understand calling the Isaiah material plagiarism, it is clear about its source. This proposal from Mr Gardner fits with the decision to rely on KJ for ease

I am struck however by the thought that this proposal brings unto question the idea that word prints show Joseph not the author due to changing voice. As best I understand word print studies presume a close word for word translation in order to detect word preferences of original author.

The problem with the KJV Bible content is that it refutes the book’s claim (and the Church’s claim) that it’s a translation of golden plates (and only a translation of golden plates) that were hid up and sealed in the first century. Accepting that KJV content for what it obviously is, means the Church would be forced into changing the title page of the book, and all previous explanations about where it came from. It would be an absolute landmark decision for critics. The Church won’t touch the “mentalese” idea with a ten foot barge pole. Believing it, one might argue, is tantamount to apostasy.

[drumdude]

Laban had to be killed so that the records could be saved. So that the people wouldn’t dwindle in unbelief.

And then the people did dwindle. And the records weren’t used. Moroni lugged those plates from Mexico to New York. And everything was beamed into Joseph’s head as images anyway.

Poor Laban. Poor Moroni. More victims of the trickster Mormon God.

[I Have Questions]

Laban had to be killed so that the records could be saved. So that the people wouldn’t dwindle in unbelief.

And then the people did dwindle. And the records weren’t used. Moroni lugged those plates from Mexico to New York. And everything was beamed into Joseph’s head as images anyway.

Poor Laban. Poor Moroni. More victims of the trickster Mormon God.

Why did they need to laboriously scratch the highlights into metal plates if God was videoing the whole thing? I’m not convinced that this is Gardner’s finest hour.

[drumdude]

Laban had to be killed so that the records could be saved. So that the people wouldn’t dwindle in unbelief.

And then the people did dwindle. And the records weren’t used. Moroni lugged those plates from Mexico to New York. And everything was beamed into Joseph’s head as images anyway.

Poor Laban. Poor Moroni. More victims of the trickster Mormon God.

Why did they need to laboriously scratch the highlights into metal plates if God was videoing the whole thing? I’m not convinced that this is Gardner’s finest hour.

Also this is on the heels of some other fine Interpreter work detailing the engraving process, how much information can be stored, weight, etc.

And Mormon God is just looking down from Mormon heaven laughing. It’s all a bunch of useless busywork.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Laban had to be killed so that the records could be saved. So that the people wouldn’t dwindle in unbelief.

And then the people did dwindle. And the records weren’t used. Moroni lugged those plates from Mexico to New York. And everything was beamed into Joseph’s head as images anyway.

Poor Laban. Poor Moroni. More victims of the trickster Mormon God.

Why did they need to laboriously scratch the highlights into metal plates if God was videoing the whole thing? I’m not convinced that this is Gardner’s finest hour.

The gold plates weren't completely useless. If you watched the box office bomb and critically panned film, Witnesses, Joseph was able to use the plates to hit one of his attackers over the head multiple times and escape.

[huckelberry]

I do not understand calling the Isaiah material plagiarism, it is clear about its source. This proposal from Mr Gardner fits with the decision to rely on KJ for ease

I am struck however by the thought that this proposal brings unto question the idea that word prints show Joseph not the author due to changing voice. As best I understand word print studies presume a close word for word translation in order to detect word preferences of original author.

Although, in my active believer days, I accepted it without thinking, I believe that "close word for word translation" is a complete non-starter as an explanation of how the Book of Mormon text got from the stone-in-the-hat to the English on paper via the various scribes.

I speak a bit of Spanish & French, and a tiny bit of German, even less Latin (!). I've also had a bit of exposure to Ukrainian grammar and word order through my volunteer work.

I cannot think of any non-trivial straight factual expression in any of these languages that could be translated word-for-word and come out the other end as minimally coherent. Never mind paragraph after paragraph of a story, presumably idiomatic in both source and target language.

I'm sure that there are folks here whose language knowledge and skills are much greater than mine, so I'm open to correction.

Malkie you are pointing out what I imagine are significant weak points in the word print matter. Word prints are perhaps the strongest arguments in favor of a real history Book of Mormon that I am aware of. I ca not suspect that claims of author word patterns remaining clear in translation is questionable. Perhaps in related languages to some extent but greater distance in language would leave word patterns more the choice of translator. This would be particularly the case for putting ideas into words as Mr Gardner proposes

[malkie]

Although, in my active believer days, I accepted it without thinking, I believe that "close word for word translation" is a complete non-starter as an explanation of how the Book of Mormon text got from the stone-in-the-hat to the English on paper via the various scribes.

I speak a bit of Spanish & French, and a tiny bit of German, even less Latin (!). I've also had a bit of exposure to Ukrainian grammar and word order through my volunteer work.

I cannot think of any non-trivial straight factual expression in any of these languages that could be translated word-for-word and come out the other end as minimally coherent. Never mind paragraph after paragraph of a story, presumably idiomatic in both source and target language.

I'm sure that there are folks here whose language knowledge and skills are much greater than mine, so I'm open to correction.

Malkie you are pointing out what I imagine are significant weak points in the word print matter. Word prints are perhaps the strongest arguments in favor of a real history Book of Mormon that I am aware of. I ca not suspect that claims of author word patterns remaining clear in translation is questionable. Perhaps in related languages to some extent but greater distance in language would leave word patterns more the choice of translator. This would be particularly the case for putting ideas into words as Mr Gardner proposes

Because of the multiple influences on the development of English - a Germanic language that follows very different "rules" from German in aspects like word order - I wonder if there is any other language whose short distance from English would cause it to largely use the same word order. As for Reformed Egyptian ... who knows.

[Gabriel]

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... f-gardner/

Instead, Gardner is among a growing number of Book of Mormon scholars who argue that Joseph’s mind received revelation as blocks of pre-verbal knowledge—what Gardner refers to as “mentalese.” Joseph then projected or imagined these impressions into being in the form of visions, which he then attempted to describe verbally.

Did Joseph see the walls of Jerusalem in a vision?

“Now when I had spoken these words … they did follow me up until we came without the walls of Jerusalem” (1 Nephi 4:4).

Edmund C. Briggs reported the most dramatic version of the story, as he heard it from Emma in 1856.

[O]ne time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, “Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?” When I answered “Yes,” he replied “Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.” He had such limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.

Source: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/did-jerus ... f%20Mormon

Did Joseph see the beheading of Laban in a vision?

9. Both Nephi and his brethren and Judith and her maid went on a secret mission for the Lord.

Book of Mormon: "we came without the walls of Jerusalem. And it was by night; and I caused that they should hide themselves without the walls... I Nephi, crept into the city and went forth towards the house of Laban." (1 Nephi 4:4-5)

Apocrypha: "Thus they went forth to the gate of the city of Bethulia... the men of the city looked after her, until she was gone down the mountain, and till she had passed the valley, and could see her no more." (Judith 10:6,10)

10. In both cases, the wicked man was delivered into the hands of the servant of the Lord.

Book of Mormon: "I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me" (1 Nephi 4:7)

Apocrypha: "And Judith was left alone in the tent, and Holofernes lying along upon his bed" (Judith 13:2)

11. In both cases, the wicked man was drunk.

Book of Mormon: "he was drunken with wine" (1 Nephi 4:7)

Apocrypha: "he was filled with wine" (Judith 13:2)

12. In both cases, the servant of the Lord took hold of the wicked man's weapon.

Book of Mormon: "I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth" (1 Nephi 4:9)

Apocrypha: "she... took down his falchion [sword] from thence" (Judith 13:6)

13. In both cases, the servant of the Lord took hold of the wicked man's hair.

Book of Mormon: "took Laban by the hair of the head" (1 Nephi 4:18)

Apocrypha: "took hold of the hair of his head" (Judith 13:7)

14. In both cases, the wicked man's head was cut off with his own weapon.

Book of Mormon: "and I smote off his head with his own sword" (1 Nephi 4:18)

Apocrypha: "And she smote twice upon his neck... and she took away his head from him" (Judith 13:8)

15. In both cases, the servant of the Lord returned to those who were waiting without being caught.

Book of Mormon: "I went forth unto my brethren, who were without the walls" (1 Nephi 4:27)

Apocrypha: "Now, when the men of her city heard her voice, they made haste to go down to the gate of their city" (Judith 13:12)

There are a lot more "coincidences" than I've posted here. The following is interesting reading:

Source: https://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no89.h ... OF%20LABAN

[I Have Questions]

Why did they need to laboriously scratch the highlights into metal plates if God was videoing the whole thing? I’m not convinced that this is Gardner’s finest hour.

Also this is on the heels of some other fine Interpreter work detailing the engraving process, how much information can be stored, weight, etc.

And Mormon God is just looking down from Mormon heaven laughing. It’s all a bunch of useless busywork.

It’s to Interpreter’s credit that they will publish multiple conflicting made-up theories on any given subject. No matter how baseless, how silly, how undermining of official Church positions.

[Gadianton]

Joseph then projected or imagined these impressions into being in the form of visions, which he then attempted to describe verbally. Gardner quotes Kathleen Flake’s study of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible:

It appears that when he read he saw events, not words. What he saw, he verbalized to a scribe

If you have mentalese, why would you detour through visions and then translate those into words rather than just go straight from mentalese to words?

Battle scenes are one thing, but what about "justice robbing mercy", how are you going to see that in a vision?

What does it even mean '"When he read he saw events?" If I'm looking at English words, I'm reading, and I may be seeing events sometimes, but if I don't know the language, then how am I reading anything? "Reading" presupposes the problems you're trying to solve are already solved.

These Mopologists are up to a whole lot of nonsense, and are being failed by their peer-reviewers. How did Dan allow this to get gated at all let alone highlighting it on his blog?