Understanding the Middle East

[Gunnar]

Then the Balfour agreement, which totally screwed over the Palestinians.

I am not here to defend or attack the foreign policy decisions of any government, but I do think that for the sake of accuracy a couple of things need to be said.

1. There was no 'Balfour Agreement' between Britain and any other state. There was a unlateral declaration by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour, dated 17 November 1917, outlining the attitude of the then British government towards those who wished to promote the idea of 'a national home for the Jewish people' in Palestine.

2. The text of the declaration clearly states that this declaration is subject to the condition "that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Had that condition actually been implemented, it would have certainly precluded any "screwing over" of the Palestinians. However, by the time this became a practical issue, Balfour and most of his fellow ministers were dead or retired from public office.

Here is the original declaration as sent:

I goofed! When I posted:

Thank you for that clarification and showing us that we still have a lot to learn about the situation.

, seemingly in response to Markk, I meant that to be a response to your post, not Markk's response to it. My bad! Please forgive me! I stupidly missed the fact that Markk had already responded before my intended response to you. I greatly appreciate you posting that letter explaining the original intent of the Balfour Declaration, showing that it really was well intended. It's a tragedy that so many failed to honor that intent!

[Markk]

The intent of the letter was for a Jewish State and homeland. It was lobbied hard by the Zionists, and by the Brits for selfish understandable reasons. The Brits knew that this was not going to go well for the Palestinians, I believe, at least from where I am in my "study" at this point.

The declaration was adopted by the newly created league of nations in 1922, and Belfour and was well alive.

There is just so much to absorb and study here, but one thing is clear that the agreement was the fuse that lead to Israel becoming a State in 1948, and the laws that came along that journey.

The declaration was written with the intent that Israel was the homeland for the Jews

Churchill in 1921, after the War, responding to Mousa Kazim el Husseini rejecting the declaration....

Our position in this country is based upon the events of the war, ratified, as they have been, by the treaties signed by the victorious Powers. I thought, when listening to your statements, that it seemed that the Arabs of Palestine had overthrown the Turkish Government. That is the reverse of the true facts. It has been the armies of Britain which have liberated these regions.

It was basically a "lump it " remark it seems. Churchill was basically saying to the former mayor of Jerusalem....'you did not win the war, we did, and "Israel" is the rightful homeland of the Jews, whether you like it or not."

From what I understand so far, and I am certainly open to change my views, any talk about the native Arab population having rights, at least to political power and things like owing properties is talk.

In part the 1920 San Remo declaration reads; doubling down on the Balfour agreement....

The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I believe history is clear that the civil rights of the native Palestinians were violated. to what degree their religious rights were violated is less clear to me. Again this complex and the more one studies this the more complex it seems to be.

[Gunnar]

I believe history is clear that the civil rights of the native Palestinians were violated.

I agree that this much, at least, is certainly clear, and that their supposed leaders, Hamas, are at least as much responsible for violating their rights and cruelly exploiting them as any other group.

[Jersey Girl]

Throwing this on the pile of resources that are accumulating on this thread. These are the Messianic Jews I posted about a while back...last year? It's 2.5 hours long. In my opinion, your time will be WELL invested!

Israel: Whose Land is it Anyway?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0jdK9Z ... l&index=11

I sat through the whole thing, and it gave me some insight into the thinking of Messianic Jews. I'm glad that they espouse the Christian ideal of loving even one's enemies and deploring the violence and hatred that has become so endemic between groups who don't share each other's beliefs or ethnic backgrounds. But I am dismayed by the theological nonsense and religious fundamentalism that permeated the whole discussion. I don't give any credence at all to the Biblical claim that the Israelites and Jews were specially chosen by God or gods to be especially favored over all other people any more than I believe Ancient Greek claims that they were specially favored by the gods of Olympus, or Babylonian claims that they were specially favored by Marduk and Ishtar. I am convinced that such religious beliefs only tend to exacerbate and perpetuate the rivalry and conflicts that have led to so much suffering and death. Nor do I believe in the literal second coming of Christ and the commencement of a millennial reign by him.

In general, I don't know of any compelling justification or evidence that the Bible is any more likely to contain the infallible and inerrant word of an immortal, omniscient deity than anything else that has ever been written.

Gunnar I didn't share the link to influence or sway your belief status or lack thereof. The purpose was to share the history of the area from the Jewish perspective because I think it gives insight into their motivations. In other words, it's not about what you believe or disbelieve but what the Jews believe and what motivates them. I appreciated hearing from Messianic Jews as well.

Here is what I believe.

Netanyahu is a war criminal with a warrant out for his arrest just like Putin. He has committed crimes against humanity by purposefully and intentionally hitting civilian targets and I believe he's stupidly and arrogantly perpetuating the genocide of the Gazan people and if he's successful in wiping them out it's only a matter of time before another terrorist cell develops and it's back to square one.

He's stupid and filled with ethnocultural based hatred which will lead to nothing fruitful for Israel. So much is wasted in terms of infrastructure and human lives. Since statistics indicate that a majority of Jewish folk identify as secular Jews, I doubt religion has anything at all to do with what drives Netanyahu.

I might have more to say as your thread moves along here. One more thing though. I'd have to watch the video again myself to refresh my memory as to what was covered but I wanted to say that with regard to Biblical prophecy that you touched on, there are sects of Jews who were taught exclusively from the Pentateuch and forbidden to read the Old Testament Prophets. Therefore, those that were never taught from the Prophets had no chance whatsover to make the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament or the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Done.

[Gunnar]

Gunnar I didn't share the link to influence or sway your belief status or lack thereof. The purpose was to share the history of the area from the Jewish perspective because I think it gives insight into their motivations. In other words, it's not about what you believe or disbelieve but what the Jews believe and what motivates them. I appreciated hearing from Messianic Jews as well.

Here is what I believe.

Netanyahu is a war criminal with a warrant out for his arrest just like Putin. He has committed crimes against humanity by purposefully and intentionally hitting civilian targets and I believe he's stupidly and arrogantly perpetuating the genocide of the Gazan people and if he's successful in wiping them out it's only a matter of time before another terrorist cell develops and it's back to square one.

He's stupid and filled with ethnocultural based hatred which will lead to nothing fruitful for Israel. So much is wasted in terms of infrastructure and human lives. Since statistics indicate that a majority of Jewish folk identify as secular Jews, I doubt religion has anything at all to do with what drives Netanyahu.

I might have more to say as your thread moves along here. One more thing though. I'd have to watch the video again myself to refresh my memory as to what was covered but I wanted to say that with regard to Biblical prophecy that you touched on, there are sects of Jews who were taught exclusively from the Pentateuch and forbidden to read the Old Testament Prophets. Therefore, those that were never taught from the Prophets had no chance whatsoever to make the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament or the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Done.

I agree with you that Netanyahu is indeed a war criminal, who is damaging the respectability and reputation of his own country and inadvertently even Jews in general worldwide, including the majority (hopefully) of them who are honorable, decent people undeserving of reproach or condemnation.

I hope you realize that I appreciate and condone your purpose for sharing that that video with us for the important insights it gives us into the motivations of that group. Though I don't give much credence to much of their theological and scriptural arguments or approve of their ultimate goal of establishing a theocratic type of government, I do commend their efforts to encourage amicable relations between the groups in the region, despite their religious disagreements, in order to end the violence and mutual hatred.

[Markk]

I believe history is clear that the civil rights of the native Palestinians were violated.

I agree that this much, at least, is certainly clear, and that their supposed leaders, Hamas, are at least as much responsible for violating their rights and cruelly exploiting them as any other group.

It is a mess, and it has always been a mess, and will continue to be a mess, with truth on both sides, and deep failures on both sides. Israel is the size of New Jersey, and when I look at it that way, at least for me, there is not a whole lot of room for two separate states in todays world.

There are so many factions lagging for power in such a small sliver of the world that keep the pot stirred.

Golda Meir famously wrote:

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

Without choosing sides, trying to be has objective as I can, I believe this quote could be given equally by a Palestinian in regard to Israel.

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs Jews for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs Jews will love their children more than they hate us.”

Having said that, I see more hate coming from groups like Hama, and countries like Iran, that from Israel, or at least a different kind of hate....it's a tough one for sure to understand.

[Gunnar]

I agree that this much, at least, is certainly clear, and that their supposed leaders, Hamas, are at least as much responsible for violating their rights and cruelly exploiting them as any other group.

It is a mess, and it has always been a mess, and will continue to be a mess, with truth on both sides, and deep failures on both sides. Israel is the size of New Jersey, and when I look at it that way, at least for me, there is not a whole lot of room for two separate states in todays world.

There are so many factions lagging for power in such a small sliver of the world that keep the pot stirred.

Golda Meir famously wrote:

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

Without choosing sides, trying to be has objective as I can, I believe this quote could be given equally by a Palestinian in regard to Israel.

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs Jews for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs Jews will love their children more than they hate us.”

Having said that, I see more hate coming from groups like Hama, and countries like Iran, that from Israel, or at least a different kind of hate....it's a tough one for sure to understand.

Good comments. It is blazingly obvious that both sides of the conflicts are hurting themselves as well as their opponents by their unending enmity towards each other. Conversely, both sides would benefit themselves as well as the other by ending this insane hatred and trying to negotiate together solutions that would ease the hatred and suffering on both sides. I also can't help but believe that one of the most intractable factors prolonging the violence is that the world's arms manufacturers and dealers are delighted with the enormous profits they are making from it and certainly have a strong incentive to work both openly and covertly to provoke the mutual hatred and enmity.