It’s not a cult, but it has some cult like features - detailed membership tracking

[Rivendale]

So they’re not just logging details of your attendance, they’re tracking who your friends are…that’s pretty creepy.

It reminds me of little kids who spy on their rival gang across the street. It is almost like these adults never grew out of this type of behavior. It is the same thing with ward gossip.

[Kishkumen]

Shrug. They keep records. I would guess that the intensity of a person's social integration into the ward is a pretty good indicator of how "active" they will be. If you have few friends, you are less likely to bother coming. Who is there whom you would want to see? Who would feel genuinely bad if you did not show up? I would start to feel creeped out if the church kept track of the identities of these friends, kept records about ancillary personal information like political affiliation, and the like. Mostly, I find this sad because of what is says about the impersonal nature of our modern world. The Church is a corporation measuring the engagement of its customers. These statistics can hardly be seen as people by the corporation.

[malkie]

Nice to see you around in the TK, Jesse.

What is it that bothers you about this?

That it is systematic, and (apparently) official? That it's collecting information that you didn't know about and/or expect?

As I said above, I don't think this is fundamentally new - it's just that there seems to be an app for it, whereas in the past the information was collected and reported manually.

As a ward clerk, I took note of people who were "missing" for a while, and might ask the EQP or RSP if they knew about any possible problems, so that the appropriate assignments could be made in ward council meeting. I remember being asked by the bishop to check on people.

I remember finding out that a young guy who lived on his own a few blocks from me had been sick, with nobody to look after him. I, as a slightly older guy living with 2 of my children, took food for him, and looked in on him every day or so. I knew him mostly because we played volleyball together at church - that would make me a "church friend in the ward".

As a non-attending non-believing member, I have a fair idea what they say about me and other members of my family.

How would that 'friend' fact have come to be in the database?

Yep - I've got to admit that that's more than a bit creepy.

[malkie]

Shrug. They keep records. I would guess that the intensity of a person's social integration into the ward is a pretty good indicator of how "active" they will be. If you have few friends, you are less likely to bother coming. Who is there whom you would want to see? Who would feel genuinely bad if you did not show up? I would start to feel creeped out if the church kept track of the identities of these friends, kept records about ancillary personal information like political affiliation, and the like. Mostly, I find this sad because of what is says about the impersonal nature of our modern world. The Church is a corporation measuring the engagement of its customers. These statistics can hardly be seen as people by the corporation.

"I would start to feel creeped out if the church kept track of the identities of these friends"

On a practical note. I can't think of any easy way to have information about how many friends someone has without noting the identities of said friends. And I can't think of a practical way of keeping information on who one's friends are without observing and keeping track of friendly interactions. Unless, of course, someone asked all of the members in a ward who their friends in the ward/stake were. Either way, it would be an enormous job keeping such information up to date.

Of course, if the information is really vital to the LDS organization, perhaps they could have the Holy Ghost work on it in his spare time.

Any way, it would also, of course, be extremely intrusive.

[Marcus]

One of the reasons that it is a cult is that there are lds families who shun family members who do not follow the same religion, and who define the world as either "members" or "non-members." Of course this is not advertised openly, but it is definitely openly practiced. That is simply not normal behavior, and it stems from the religion. It is a cult when people within it behave in cult-like ways.

The denial of cult-like aspects in the Mormon church reminds me of a current news article. A 68year old senior missionary died in Missouri because he was tasked with mowing the sloping lawns of a large lds property and the mower rolled over and killed him. The cult deniers are packing the thread with comments such as 'it must have been his fault', and 'I've never heard of the lds church not using professional lawn services,' when it's clear that he died because the lds church won't pay for professional services and regularly and chronically mis-uses volunteer help. The lds church is a cult.

[Physics Guy]

For whatever it’s worth I think that the LDS church is a long way from something like Jim Jones’s community. On the other hand it seems to be noticeably further along that axis than any larger religions I know.

I think that cults just aren’t scalable. If you want to get really big, you’ve got to give up that intense focus on one living human being and shift to something more general. And the more general thing has to appeal to more normal people, not just a vulnerable population, so it can’t be too crazy in its practical implications.

I think of Mormonism as a kind of geometric mean between a cult and a major religion.

[Kishkumen]

On a practical note. I can't think of any easy way to have information about how many friends someone has without noting the identities of said friends. And I can't think of a practical way of keeping information on who one's friends are without observing and keeping track of friendly interactions. Unless, of course, someone asked all of the members in a ward who their friends in the ward/stake were. Either way, it would be an enormous job keeping such information up to date.

Of course, if the information is really vital to the LDS organization, perhaps they could have the Holy Ghost work on it in his spare time.

Any way, it would also, of course, be extremely intrusive.

Well, obviously the people on the local level know who a person's friends are. The question is whether they are making note of the identities of these friends in a database accessed by authorities in SLC. I find the whole thing more lamentable in its impersonal corporatism than creepy, but I can certainly understand others finding it intrusive and creepy. The LDS Church has a long history of being intrusive and creepy. I just don't think this is a very strong example of that.

[I Have Questions]

So they’re not just logging details of your attendance, they’re tracking who your friends are…that’s pretty creepy.

It reminds me of little kids who spy on their rival gang across the street. It is almost like these adults never grew out of this type of behavior. It is the same thing with ward gossip.

It’s very “Scientology”

[Marcus]

... And the more general thing has to appeal to more normal people, not just a vulnerable population, so it can’t be too crazy in its practical implications...

That's an interesting point. I think Mormonism currently only appeals to vulnerable populations, while its 'crazy practical implications' are kept alive in semi-isolated generational constructs. You don't realize exactly how 'crazy' these implications are until you leave.

[Everybody Wang Chung]