Leaving Mormonism, to leaving MAGA

[MG 2.0]

Just a side note. This woman complains about Mormonism being a “high demand religion”. I keep hearing that from critics. One might ask whether this complaint among those that leave the church might be playing an integral part in their exit from the church. Joseph Smith said:

Was he on to something? We seem to be seeing more and more people unwilling or unable to make the sacrifice necessary to be a disciple of Christ as a member of the church. There are certain moral standards and sexual purity standards that are part and parcel of being a baptized member of the church keeping covenants. Are there some that aren’t willing to make that sacrifice? This seems to be a thing with this woman.

I think this is a fair observation. It is also fair to observe that for Joseph Smith sacrificing all things could mean giving him your precious teenage daughter in marriage. Maybe that's one area where we should not be quick to agree with Smith.

The fact is, however, if I remember correctly, the parents DID allow their daughter to enter into the marriage. I wasn’t there. I can’t see clearly through the fog of history. Would I have done the same thing at that same/exact place and time? It’s really hard to say. It’s messy, right? Especially from our current time and view.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The president willfully violating the Constitution is a complete dealbreaker for me, so I don't actually care whatever else he does. He needs to go.

Accusations of unconstitutional actions are not unknown in modern politics. Executive orders, use of military force, and presidential immunity and executive privilege are the three main areas that will be pointed to by those that have issues with any currently serving president. Accusations of unconstitutional authority/actions have been made against Donald Trump. Admittedly he has been skating on pretty thin ice.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

The fact is, however, if I remember correctly, the parents DID allow their daughter to enter into the marriage.

Yes, and the parents of girls did the same thing when David Koresh of the Branch Davidians asked it.

I wasn’t there. I can’t see clearly through the fog of history. Would I have done the same thing at that same/exact place and time? It’s really hard to say. It’s messy, right? Especially from our current time and view.

I don't need to be there to know what I would do. I would say, "Hell no, and now we are leaving." I dearly hope that in this situation you would do the very same thing if he came asking for the hand of your teenage daughter. Some things are, in my view, not so messy. While I was never a big fan of Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness, I did agree with him when he said that it was helpful to make important moral decisions in advance. That helps us maintain our resolve when someone comes tempting us to do something deeply offensive in the sight of God, like giving away our precious children to adult men seeking to possess them.

[Kishkumen]

Accusations of unconstitutional actions are not unknown in modern politics. Executive orders, use of military force, and presidential immunity and executive privilege are the three main areas that will be pointed to by those that have issues with any currently serving president. Accusations of unconstitutional authority/actions have been made against Donald Trump. Admittedly he has been skating on pretty thin ice.

Regards,
MG

Dude, I don't know what Kool Aid you are drinking, but constitutional scholars and historians pretty roundly agree that Trump is violating the Constitution. Consider the fact that Congress has the power to levy tariffs, not the president. Two panels of judges have found against Trump on this. Trump does not know the Constitution, he does not adhere to the Constitution, and he does not care about adhering to the Constitution. Wake up.

[MG 2.0]

The fact is, however, if I remember correctly, the parents DID allow their daughter to enter into the marriage.

Yes, and the parents of girls did the same thing when David Koresh of the Branch Davidians asked it.

I wasn’t there. I can’t see clearly through the fog of history. Would I have done the same thing at that same/exact place and time? It’s really hard to say. It’s messy, right? Especially from our current time and view.

I don't need to be there to know what I would do. I would say, "Hell no, and now we are leaving." I dearly hope that in this situation you would do the very same thing if he came asking for the hand of your teenage daughter. Some things are, in my view, not so messy. While I was never a big fan of Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness, I did agree with him when he said that it was helpful to make important moral decisions in advance. That helps us maintain our resolve when someone comes tempting us to do something deeply offensive in the sight of God, like giving away our precious children to adult men seeking to possess them.

I won’t argue with you on your perspective. I have some problems trying to wrap my mind around it too.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

I won’t argue with you on your perspective. I have some problems trying to wrap my mind around it too.

Regards,
MG

Keep working at it until you have a problem imagining yourself doing anything but rejecting Joseph when he asks you to give up your teenage daughter in marriage to him.

[malkie]

We seem to be seeing more and more people unwilling or unable to make the sacrifice necessary to be a disciple of Christ as a member of the church. There are certain moral standards and sexual purity standards that are part and parcel of being a baptized member of the church keeping covenants. Are there some that aren’t willing to make that sacrifice? This seems to be a thing with this woman.

If someone disbelieves, or comes to disbelieve, in Christ, or in Mormonism, of course they would be "unwilling or unable to make the sacrifice necessary to be a disciple of Christ as a member of the church." And it seems to be that more and more people so disbelieve. So it should come as no surprise that an increasing number of people either do not join the Mormon church, or leave it after joining. Whether that is generally a matter of people unwilling to uphold arbitrary "moral standards and sexual purity standards that are part and parcel of being a baptized member of the church" is debatable, as you imply by your reference to "some that aren’t willing to make that sacrifice".

Do we know whether that is true of "this woman"? If so, why say it "seems to be a thing" with her. If not, why continue with the inuendo? It's almost as if you have decided that she is guilty of moral turpitude, and don't want to miss an opportunity to imply such.

[MG 2.0]

Accusations of unconstitutional actions are not unknown in modern politics. Executive orders, use of military force, and presidential immunity and executive privilege are the three main areas that will be pointed to by those that have issues with any currently serving president. Accusations of unconstitutional authority/actions have been made against Donald Trump. Admittedly he has been skating on pretty thin ice.

Regards,
MG

Dude, I don't know what Kool Aid you are drinking, but constitutional scholars and historians pretty roundly agree that Trump is violating the Constitution. Consider the fact that Congress has the power to levy tariffs, not the president. Two panels of judges have found against Trump on this. Trump does not know the Constitution, he does not adhere to the Constitution, and he does not care about adhering to the Constitution. Wake up.

I said he has skated on pretty skin ice. I think the ice has cracked at least once. January 6th. I’m know there have been other times. He is NOT a perfect man. He had shady dealings in business also. That doesn’t negate the fact, in my opinion, that there have been some positive things done during both Trump administrations.

BUT, we need to keep an eye on this guy. No argument there.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

I said he has skated on pretty skin ice. I think the ice has cracked at least once. January 6th. I’m know there have been other times. He is NOT a perfect man. He had shady dealings in business also. That doesn’t negate the fact, in my opinion, that there have been some positive things done during both Trump administrations.

So what? Who cares?

Again:

Trump does not know what the Constitution says.

He does not really know what it means to be president according to the Constitution.

He is in violation of the Constitution right now.

He does not care.

How badly in violation of the Constitution and the rule of law does this man need to be before you stop making excuses for him and weighing the couple of things you like against his frontal assault on your citizenship and freedom?

Please watch this video, even if you have seen it before: https://youtu.be/fHjbDSOmeiM?si=J8w-anLYDykIy4Hg

ETA: If you need further help with the video, yes, Trump is the clown.

[MG 2.0]

We seem to be seeing more and more people unwilling or unable to make the sacrifice necessary to be a disciple of Christ as a member of the church. There are certain moral standards and sexual purity standards that are part and parcel of being a baptized member of the church keeping covenants. Are there some that aren’t willing to make that sacrifice? This seems to be a thing with this woman.

If someone disbelieves, or comes to disbelieve, in Christ, or in Mormonism, of course they would be "unwilling or unable to make the sacrifice necessary to be a disciple of Christ as a member of the church." And it seems to be that more and more people so disbelieve. So it should come as no surprise that an increasing number of people either do not join the Mormon church, or leave it after joining. Whether that is generally a matter of people unwilling to uphold arbitrary "moral standards and sexual purity standards that are part and parcel of being a baptized member of the church" is debatable, as you imply by your reference to "some that aren’t willing to make that sacrifice".

Do we know whether that is true of "this woman"? If so, why say it "seems to be a thing" with her. If not, why continue with the inuendo? It's almost as if you have decided that she is guilty of moral turpitude, and don't want to miss an opportunity to imply such.

I’m willing to concede that her issues with dress and other physical factors may not have been the primary reason she left the church. And yes, if one no longer believes that certain commandments/policies have their origin with inspired men and/or God they are going to ‘go their own way’.

Alyssa very early on saw some, what she perceived to be, inequalities in the way girls and boys were treated and how girls were conditioned to think that if they didn’t ‘dress properly’ THEY were at fault. She saw that as body shaming. I’m not arguing that there HAVEN’T been some screwed up views held by some folks in the church, including some leaders.

Fortunately, times are changing and more folks are recognizing that morality is on a sliding scale. Leaders have been, and excusably so, concerned with the ‘slippery slope’. That along with very conservative cultural influences and left over Puritanism played their part. What is unfortunate is that people see this as a deal breaker to the truth claims of the church rather than a side issue, albeit one that has been thorny.

It hasn’t been the only issue that falls into this category.

Fornication, adultery, and the like are still sins. That hasn’t changed. The church’s approach with more loving kindness and patience has changed.

Regards,
MG