Mudslide slams into Provo LDS church

[Doctor Steuss]

First, my apologies to the OP for contributing to a derail. It's a fun topic though, and I have no self-control.

I thought God was responsible for everything surrounding the gaps so if the gaps completely dissappear then God is seen as responsible for it all.

When I find myself wandering from the realm of agnostic, and tiptoeing the edges of belief, I find the idea of God essentially initiating the whole thing with a loaded pair of cosmic dice as the most appealing. I generally lean more Deist than Theist though in those moments.

No doubt there are probably a million flaws in that belief that others could pick away at, but it seems to make more sense that God's hand would be able to set the rules of the game in such a way that once the game board was created, everything would essentially fall into place in the way it was initially planned. Kind of like creating a program where there are a few key parameters that guide a handful of end outcomes, but everything else is allowed to just kind of play out. Like an open world RPG, where you'll eventually complete the campaign, but the way you complete it will unavoidable be different than everyone else's way... but it gets completed nonetheless.

Hopefully that makes sense(?)

[huckelberry]

First, my apologies to the OP for contributing to a derail. It's a fun topic though, and I have no self-control.

I thought God was responsible for everything surrounding the gaps so if the gaps completely dissappear then God is seen as responsible for it all.

When I find myself wandering from the realm of agnostic, and tiptoeing the edges of belief, I find the idea of God essentially initiating the whole thing with a loaded pair of cosmic dice as the most appealing. I generally lean more Deist than Theist though in those moments.

No doubt there are probably a million flaws in that belief that others could pick away at, but it seems to make more sense that God's hand would be able to set the rules of the game in such a way that once the game board was created, everything would essentially fall into place in the way it was initially planned. Kind of like creating a program where there are a few key parameters that guide a handful of end outcomes, but everything else is allowed to just kind of play out. Like an open world RPG, where you'll eventually complete the campaign, but the way you complete it will unavoidable be different than everyone else's way... but it gets completed nonetheless.

Hopefully that makes sense(?)

Dr steuss, I have little familiarity with the games you reference but I understand you to be pointing to a world with basic structures determining outcomes like living beings and evolution but still having some flexibility. I like that. It could be a very deist image or it as well could fit a God willing to miraculously meddle on occasion.

[MG 2.0]

Last week, a study was published where RNA was created abiotically in a "primordial Earth" experiment.

The space for the god of the gaps to dwell forever dwindles. Phenomenal cosmic power, iddy-biddy living space.

Published Study

I thought God was responsible for everything surrounding the gaps so if the gaps completely dissappear then God is seen as responsible for it all.

This study points the way towards a plausible natural pathway for the emergence of life, but it cannot address metaphysical questions about why the universe or physical laws exist at all—questions which remain within the realm of philosophy and theology, not empirical science. It's almost enough to convince a person to at least consider being a Deist. I'm comfortable taking it one step further to where I pray to a personal God who set the whole shebang (pun intended) up and is in and through all things.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

The link to the “Articles of Faith” is broken.

Try here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/com ... s-of-faith

You'll get used to not trusting anything Fibber posts.

Yes. The forum gets a great deal of practice at that.

[I Have Questions]

Too many derails. MG wins again. I give up.

[MG 2.0]

Try here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/com ... s-of-faith

You'll get used to not trusting anything Fibber posts.

Yes. The forum gets a great deal of practice at that.

This was the original post:

Not to mention confusion. The other day I was following a thread in which the term “Creator God” was used.

I was led to understand that the LDS God did not create, but rather organized existing matter.

Which, interestingly, is how it seems much of LDS scripture was created/organized.

Apologies for the continuation of the derail.

That's OK. For clarification the LDS church interprets creation as the act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter (creatio ex materia). A "creator" is the One who supervises the organization of chaos or existing physical elements.

Hope this helps. If you are indeed investigating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I would suggest you go to the church's website.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng

You will get a skewed view of things on this board.

Regards,
MG

There wasn't anything NOT to trust. Marcus simply doing what she does best. Taking something out of context and putting her 'brand' on...whatever. She is not to be trusted. She is a troll who has dedicated herself to following me around. Weird, but true. A groupie of sorts. I'd rather she find someone else to troll but she seems to get some kind of sadistic pleasure out of it. Go figure.

I can't remember the last time she actually interacted in any meaningful way in a conversation with me. I'm hoping for the time...

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Too many derails. MG wins again. I give up.

Of course, Marcus gets a free pass from her tag team partner.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I thought God was responsible for everything surrounding the gaps so if the gaps completely dissappear then God is seen as responsible for it all.

This study points the way towards a plausible natural pathway for the emergence of life, but it cannot address metaphysical questions about why the universe or physical laws exist at all—questions which remain within the realm of philosophy and theology, not empirical science. It's almost enough to convince a person to at least consider being a Deist. I'm comfortable taking it one step further to where I pray to a personal God who set the whole shebang (pun intended) up and is in and through all things.

Regards,
MG

I joined in on a Dr. Steuss derail. Some might want to join back in on this. I think the mudslide part of the thread has more or less become uninteresting. Back to A topic? Dr. Steuss's original post is upthread just a bit.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

In another example of God’s displeasure with the SLC LDS Church…

Why didn’t the Holy Ghost step up with some inspiration when the Church’s property department were in the planning stage? “Hey guys, don’t build in the likely path of a mud slide”.

One must admit, there's a certain poetic irony in the Mormon church being buried in four feet of mud, crap, and debris. Surely the Mormon god wouldn't let a simple microburst—a tiny tantrum of weather—obliterate a house of worship. I bet Zeus wouldn't have let this happen.

While the public works engineer, Gordon Haight, is all "nothing could have prepared them for this," a neighbor named Barry Card is out here saying, "This could have been avoided!" It seems Barry has more faith in a well-constructed debris channel than Mormon god. Perhaps the real miracle here would have been for the city to have a functional, 1,200-foot-long debris channel built before the disaster.

One has to wonder if this is some kind of message, or a sign that even the most devout Mormons should remember to check the local building codes and invest in a decent drainage system. Because heaven helps those who help themselves, and perhaps even more so, those who build with proper mitigation/drainage efforts.

Indeed. The story has so much irony, starting with building up a mountain when mere humans predicted there would be issues with debris and drainage. It sounds like mitigation efforts were in place, but they ended right where the houses were protected and the meetinghouse was not. I'm curious how that happened?

[MG 2.0]

One must admit, there's a certain poetic irony in the Mormon church being buried in four feet of mud, crap, and debris. Surely the Mormon god wouldn't let a simple microburst—a tiny tantrum of weather—obliterate a house of worship. I bet Zeus wouldn't have let this happen.

While the public works engineer, Gordon Haight, is all "nothing could have prepared them for this," a neighbor named Barry Card is out here saying, "This could have been avoided!" It seems Barry has more faith in a well-constructed debris channel than Mormon god. Perhaps the real miracle here would have been for the city to have a functional, 1,200-foot-long debris channel built before the disaster.

One has to wonder if this is some kind of message, or a sign that even the most devout Mormons should remember to check the local building codes and invest in a decent drainage system. Because heaven helps those who help themselves, and perhaps even more so, those who build with proper mitigation/drainage efforts.

Indeed. The story has so much irony, starting with building up a mountain when mere humans predicted there would be issues with debris and drainage. It sounds like mitigation efforts were in place, but they ended right where the houses were protected and the meetinghouse was not. I'm curious how that happened?

How it happened:

Prioritization of residential areas.
Budget or jurisdictional constraints.
Underestimation of risk.

Some of the decisions having to do with land use and risk management have real life consequences.

Here is what has or will be done:

Cement Barriers.
Check Dams.
Plans to extend the debris Channel Extension.

It's important to remember that this all occurred as a result of the the Buckley Draw Fire. It left a massive burn scar, which made the soil hydrophobic and prone to debris flow.

Live and learn, right?

I have a brother-in-law who was the head of Civil Engineering in a large county in California until he retired. He had to deal with these kinds of natural disasters (some that could have been prevented) quite frequently. It sounds like the folks involved in this incident have learned and will implement practices and materials that may help stop this sort of thing happening again. This storm was a major storm, however. Mother Nature is going to do what she's going to do. But we can try/hope to prepare.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG