DCP doubles down on semantics to salvage Brigham’s racist legacy

[Limnor]

Ok I did a brief review.

First I’d like to say that I forgot Tal Bachman posted here a long time ago! Also, some voices are missing now - Bloxa, beastie, Runtu, and others.

On to the review:

I conducted the search - 283 entities ugh. But I found a few that may apply.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154304&p=2757667&hi ... n#p2757667

MG: My point in this thread is that, just like evolution, there is room for folks to have wiggle room in whatever position or non position they choose to have. My concern is that folks with a black and white fundamentalist bent, which includes a number of critics in my opinion, are going to shatter like glass when they are not able to readily resolve issues such as this.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159938&p=2898877&hi ... n#p2898877

MG: As the First Vision account evolved and matured through understanding it came to a place where it was ‘in cement’. It didn’t change thereafter. Just as with other things within the gospel/church framework we see the processes of change and evolution take place. Line upon line, precept upon precept. That shouldn’t come as any great shock.

I’ve mentioned the ‘silver platter’ concept before. Some folks either think…or demand…that God dispense his knowledge and wisdom in total, rather than incremental chunks. The First Vision falls into this category in my view. Joseph and others had certain knowledge. They saw what was happening through their own lens of understanding. That understanding evolved over time and experience.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157950&p=2843433&hi ... n#p2843433

But the real meat, as applicable to an investigator, is here:

MG: Iwould argue, as I said in my last post, that conversion is a natural process that takes time, experience, knowledge, with a bit of wisdom thrown in. Conversion should ideally be balanced between contrasting ideas/opinions and alternate points of view available from various sources.
(The missionary program in some instances encourages the opposite. Conversion can then be built on shaky/sandy ground.)

Line upon line and precept upon precept accumulates bit by bit in a granular fashion until a person determines whether or not ‘this is a good seed’.

………….

Summary: Believe first and then everything will work out. Kind of follows the persuasion line of Alma.

I’m not entirely sure how that applies in this thread, but think it means God revealed his guidance over time. Of course, that aligns to IHQs point that ultimately it is God who is responsible.

Translated by an investigator: We aren’t going to tell you everything at first, just believe. The warts are minor.


Did I capture your thoughts accurately MG?

[Limnor]

Dupe - delete

[I Have Questions]

Summary: Believe first and then everything will work out. Kind of follows the persuasion line of Alma.

I’m not entirely sure how that applies in this thread, but think it means God revealed his guidance over time. Of course, that aligns to OHQs point that ultimately it is God who is responsible.

It does. And MG knows it does, which is why he didn’t help you with your search for his thoughts on the matter.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Summary: Believe first and then everything will work out. Kind of follows the persuasion line of Alma.

I’m not entirely sure how that applies in this thread, but think it means God revealed his guidance over time. Of course, that aligns to OHQs point that ultimately it is God who is responsible.

It does. And MG knows it does, which is why he didn’t help you with your search for his thoughts on the matter.

My sincere apologies to all investigators and truth-seekers for the actions of our self-appointed missionary, Fibber MG. His brazen depravity and blatant dishonesty are a daily source of profound shock and disappointment. He has earned, hands down, the title of the worst missionary of all time.

[Limnor]

Did I capture your thoughts accurately, MG?

If it were me I’d throw Brigham under the bus instead of God.

Less risky.

[MG 2.0]

Summary: Believe first and then everything will work out. Kind of follows the persuasion line of Alma.

I’m not entirely sure how that applies in this thread, but think it means God revealed his guidance over time. Of course, that aligns to OHQs point that ultimately it is God who is responsible.

It does. And MG knows it does, which is why he didn’t help you with your search for his thoughts on the matter.

I didn’t need to. He did some footwork. More than you did. Yes, God works with mankind according to their individual understanding, development, time and place, etc. It is an evolutionary process . God IS responsible. God is not a “failure” for being/acting as the ultimate guidance counselor to help His individual children progress as independent beings according to their own nature and being. I taught school for many years. Each child was unique in some way all the way from special needs to emotionally challenged to gifted and talented, etc. Each student progressed in their own fashion along the path of discovery and knowledge. Some faster than others. Different, not better.

As we compare and contrast ourselves with others in our current time and place we ought to be very careful about judging others that were different in some/many ways than ourselves. As far as “racist policy” I would say that God teaches us, He doesn’t force us or even give us the gift of knowledge if He can see…from His perspective…(who we are, what our place in time is, how revelation impacts free agency, etc.)…that either we are not ready or it’s not the right time and place. I’m willing to place that judgement in the hands of an all knowledgeable Being that knows the end from the beginning and has set a plan in place by which everything will be made right.

Jesus’s Atonement. It all comes down to an all powerful God and His Son Jesus Christ. And that’s where faith comes into the picture.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

It does. And MG knows it does, which is why he didn’t help you with your search for his thoughts on the matter.

My sincere apologies to all investigators and truth-seekers for the actions of our self-appointed missionary, Fibber MG. His brazen depravity and blatant dishonesty are a daily source of profound shock and disappointment. He has earned, hands down, the title of the worst missionary of all time.

Yes.

[I Have Questions]

It does. And MG knows it does, which is why he didn’t help you with your search for his thoughts on the matter.

I didn’t need to. He did some footwork. More than you did. Yes, God works with mankind according to their individual understanding, development, time and place, etc. It is an evolutionary process . God IS responsible. God is not a “failure” for being/acting as the ultimate guidance counselor to help His individual children progress as independent beings according to their own nature and being. I taught school for many years. Each child was unique in some way all the way from special needs to emotionally challenged to gifted and talented, etc. Each student progressed in their own fashion along the path of discovery and knowledge. Some faster than others. Different, not better.

As we compare and contrast ourselves with others in our current time and place we ought to be very careful about judging others that were different in some/many ways than ourselves. As far as “racist policy” I would say that God teaches us, He doesn’t force us or even give us the gift of knowledge if He can see…from His perspective…(who we are, what our place in time is, how revelation impacts free agency, etc.)…that either we are not ready or it’s not the right time and place. I’m willing to place that judgement in the hands of an all knowledgeable Being that knows the end from the beginning and has set a plan in place by which everything will be made right.

Jesus’s Atonement. It all comes down to an all powerful God and His Son Jesus Christ. And that’s where faith comes into the picture.

Regards,
MG

Got it, you’re going with option 2, that God failed to stop the racist policy that the Church operated for a hundred years, because blah blah blah guidance counsellor blah blah blah AND you are going with option 2, that God wanted the racist policy that the Church operated for a hundred years, because blah blah blah black people weren’t ready for the priesthood blah blah blah black people were like special needs children blah blah blah not able to progress as quickly as others blah blah blah.

What a bunch of racist claptrap you’ve just spewed over the board.

[malkie]

I didn’t need to. He did some footwork. More than you did. Yes, God works with mankind according to their individual understanding, development, time and place, etc. It is an evolutionary process . God IS responsible. God is not a “failure” for being/acting as the ultimate guidance counselor to help His individual children progress as independent beings according to their own nature and being. I taught school for many years. Each child was unique in some way all the way from special needs to emotionally challenged to gifted and talented, etc. Each student progressed in their own fashion along the path of discovery and knowledge. Some faster than others. Different, not better.

As we compare and contrast ourselves with others in our current time and place we ought to be very careful about judging others that were different in some/many ways than ourselves. As far as “racist policy” I would say that God teaches us, He doesn’t force us or even give us the gift of knowledge if He can see…from His perspective…(who we are, what our place in time is, how revelation impacts free agency, etc.)…that either we are not ready or it’s not the right time and place. I’m willing to place that judgement in the hands of an all knowledgeable Being that knows the end from the beginning and has set a plan in place by which everything will be made right.

Jesus’s Atonement. It all comes down to an all powerful God and His Son Jesus Christ. And that’s where faith comes into the picture.

Regards,
MG

Got it, you’re going with option 2, that God failed to stop the racist policy that the Church operated for a hundred years, because blah blah blah guidance counsellor blah blah blah AND you are going with option 2, that God wanted the racist policy that the Church operated for a hundred years, because blah blah blah black people weren’t ready for the priesthood blah blah blah black people were like special needs children blah blah blah not able to progress as quickly as others blah blah blah.

What a bunch of racist claptrap you’ve just spewed over the board.

As far as “racist policy” I would say that God teaches us, He doesn’t force us or even give us the gift of knowledge if He can see…from His perspective…(who we are, what our place in time is, how revelation impacts free agency, etc.)…that either we are not ready or it’s not the right time and place. I’m willing to place that judgement in the hands of an all knowledgeable Being that knows the end from the beginning and has set a plan in place by which everything will be made right.

Although when Joseph apparently rebelled against the practice of polygamy, ... he was not permitted to exercise his free agency. Perhaps, in that case, his god was unable to "set a plan in place by which everything will be made right", and therefore Joseph had to be threatened until he reluctantly complied. I have to admit to a bit of skepticism.

[I Have Questions]

As far as “racist policy” I would say that God teaches us, He doesn’t force us or even give us the gift of knowledge if He can see…from His perspective…(who we are, what our place in time is, how revelation impacts free agency, etc.)…that either we are not ready or it’s not the right time and place. I’m willing to place that judgement in the hands of an all knowledgeable Being that knows the end from the beginning and has set a plan in place by which everything will be made right.

Although when Joseph apparently rebelled against the practice of polygamy, ... he was not permitted to exercise his free agency. Perhaps, in that case, his god was unable to "set a plan in place by which everything will be made right", and therefore Joseph had to be threatened until he reluctantly complied. I have to admit to a bit of skepticism.

I’m struggling to match MG’s idea that God allows His prophets to make wrong decisions that affect the whole church for generations, with the Church teaching that God will never allow His prophets to lead the Church astray. Either MG is talking rubbish, or the Church is. The Church and MG cannot both be correct as their statements are mutually exclusive of each other. They can of course both be wrong.

It is worth noting that the Church asserts that you can always trust the living prophet. I think the SEC discovered that no, you can’t.