DCP yearns for a hedonistic physical heaven with sex, drugs, and rock and roll

[I Have Questions]

The concept was first introduced in 1922 by one senior figure

Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave a talk at the Ogden tabernacle on September 22, 1922. An early pamphlet carries the title “Three degrees of Glory; a discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, September 22, 1922.” My particular copy, printed in 1926 is 48 pages long and it is a very interesting talk about the three degrees of glory as described in Section 76. Elder Ballard talks about a variety of subjects and tries to answer many questions on who goes where, how our choices and actions in this life affect our final destination and his views on wayward children in this life, among many other topics. The critical part to my thesis comes on page 10 of the 1926 printing. There appears this paragraph:
“Now, I wish to say to you that the only possible candidates to become what God is are those who attain Celestial Glory, and those who fail in that will never, worlds without end, be possible candidates to become what God is. Then I wish to say to you that there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom and only those who attain the highest degree of Celestial Glory will be candidates to become what God is, and graduate.”

This is the first time I can find any such teaching, in print form, of a three sub-degree division of the Celestial Kingdom. Elder Ballard says nothing more about this subject anywhere else in the talk. He makes no clarification of who fits into sub one, two or three or what differences there are.

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It is impossible to know how long he harbored the idea of three sub-degrees previous to this talk, but it seems clear that it was not widely held within the church authority community. In my view, it was just a simple mistake on Ballard’s part. However, it grew a set of legs and has taken on a life of its own. The pamphlet had at least five printings before 1930 and many more afterward. I have a copy that was printed after 1978. As late as a 1951 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Commentary there is nothing about three sub-degrees but at least general parts of the church populace had started promoting the idea.

And more...

The concept of three sub-degrees is currently taught as part of the basic doctrines of the church. (See lds.org – Gospel Topics- kingdoms of glory) I won’t go into an exhaustive listing of all of the places that the sub-degrees can be found since 1922. It started off slowly and gained steam until it is generally believed by the majority of Church members today. In my opinion the Lord has not revealed any specifics about the three sub-degrees because he never said there were any sub-degrees to begin with. My belief is that The Celestial kingdom is good as it stands and doesn’t need any help in modification. The sub degree doctrine just adds a lot of confusion by all of the speculation that it produces based on what I believe to be a mistaken interpretation.

It sounds a lot like a Wasatch front urban myth that morphed into something that now the Church accepts.

[drumdude]

drumdude, have you considered the possibility that both DCP and these two Catholics you’ve referenced, might both be right? I don’t see where they are really in conflict. Could you point out to me where they are? Do Catholics believe in the opportunity for eternal increase?

Regards,
MG

Are you aware one of the first missionary discussions consists of “other religions don’t believe that families will be together forever, but ours does.”

It’s a fundamental misunderstanding and mischaracterization of mainstream Christian beliefs. Kind of like a used car salesman telling you that his car lot offers lifetime headlight fluid changes.

[Gadianton]

The better analogy would be that those who paid up, came to the meetings, and met all the requirements for the "invitation" would get to eat this feast, but the other guests who showed up would have mouths, tongues, teeth, and stomachs that no longer functioned.

That's fair.

[Gadianton]

I grew up being taught/told that the Celestial Kingdom consisted of more than one ‘level’

True enough. The highest level are Gods, the middle angels, and the lowest unrevealed.

The issue here, however, MG, is that okay, the angels can't procreate eternally, but they do commune with the Gods. In fact, as was mentioned also in a certain short story recently, I'm sure you were taught that Celestial beings can "visit" the Terrestrial. For the most part Celestial beings are separate, they are not "together", but they can pay visits down one level. They cannot visit the Telestial, however. So that means that any family members who earn the Telestial Kingdom are forever separated from those in the Celestial Kingdom. If you really care about family most of all, then you must shoot for the Terrestrial Kingdom, because then you can fraternize with the full spectrum.

So the Mormon heaven that is broken into levels ultimately cuts many families off from each other. (This is irrelevant when eternal procreation is on the table but that's another post) However, in other conceptions of Heaven, there are no such barriers.

[MG 2.0]

I grew up being taught/told that the Celestial Kingdom consisted of more than one ‘level’

True enough. The highest level are Gods, the middle angels, and the lowest unrevealed.

The issue here, however, MG, is that okay, the angels can't procreate eternally, but they do commune with the Gods. In fact, as was mentioned also in a certain short story recently, I'm sure you were taught that Celestial beings can "visit" the Terrestrial. For the most part Celestial beings are separate, they are not "together", but they can pay visits down one level. They cannot visit the Telestial, however. So that means that any family members who earn the Telestial Kingdom are forever separated from those in the Celestial Kingdom. If you really care about family most of all, then you must shoot for the Terrestrial Kingdom, because then you can fraternize with the full spectrum.

So the Mormon heaven that is broken into levels ultimately cuts many families off from each other. (This is irrelevant when eternal procreation is on the table but that's another post) However, in other conceptions of Heaven, there are no such barriers.

Being that God is love I will simply say that my belief is that God has provided for the happiness for all of His children. Eternity is a LONG time. Whether or not things are as black and white as you might like to think or whether or not scriptural exegesis can fully flesh out what will happen over the long haul...I'm skeptical. I think that some things are left to the imagination one way or the other. Towards faith or away from faith. It comes back to the whole idea of opposition in all things. That may well also apply to what we've been given compared to what is yet to come. I don't see it as being far-fetched that line upon line and precept upon precept goes with us into the next world.

Otherwise, eternity would be rather uninteresting, boring and stagnate. I would 'imagine' there's much more going on 'there' than what we can even begin to conceptualize. But of course, you can choose to think that there's nothing there at all I suppose.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

I grew up being taught/told that the Celestial Kingdom consisted of more than one ‘level’

True enough. The highest level are Gods, the middle angels, and the lowest unrevealed.

The issue here, however, MG, is that okay, the angels can't procreate eternally, but they do commune with the Gods. In fact, as was mentioned also in a certain short story recently, I'm sure you were taught that Celestial beings can "visit" the Terrestrial. For the most part Celestial beings are separate, they are not "together", but they can pay visits down one level. They cannot visit the Telestial, however. So that means that any family members who earn the Telestial Kingdom are forever separated from those in the Celestial Kingdom. If you really care about family most of all, then you must shoot for the Terrestrial Kingdom, because then you can fraternize with the full spectrum.

So the Mormon heaven that is broken into levels ultimately cuts many families off from each other. (This is irrelevant when eternal procreation is on the table but that's another post) However, in other conceptions of Heaven, there are no such barriers.

That's the irony. When I was growing up, the motto was 'families can be together forever,' which implies of course that other religions don't believe that. But, not only do other religions I've now been exposed to not even consider families might be apart in heaven, the Mormons are the only ones that threaten to separate one from ones family, unless you pay up in advance.

[I Have Questions]

True enough. The highest level are Gods, the middle angels, and the lowest unrevealed.

The issue here, however, MG, is that okay, the angels can't procreate eternally, but they do commune with the Gods. In fact, as was mentioned also in a certain short story recently, I'm sure you were taught that Celestial beings can "visit" the Terrestrial. For the most part Celestial beings are separate, they are not "together", but they can pay visits down one level. They cannot visit the Telestial, however. So that means that any family members who earn the Telestial Kingdom are forever separated from those in the Celestial Kingdom. If you really care about family most of all, then you must shoot for the Terrestrial Kingdom, because then you can fraternize with the full spectrum.

So the Mormon heaven that is broken into levels ultimately cuts many families off from each other. (This is irrelevant when eternal procreation is on the table but that's another post) However, in other conceptions of Heaven, there are no such barriers.

That's the irony. When I was growing up, the motto was 'families can be together forever,' which implies of course that other religions don't believe that. But, not only do other religions I've now been exposed to not even consider families might be apart in heaven, the Mormons are the only ones that threaten to separate one from ones family, unless you pay up in advance.

That's correct. The Mormon system of 3 kingdoms, with a further split of three levels within one of those kingdoms, guarantees that every family unit that there has ever been will spend their eternity, separated from at least some of their immediate family members (grandparents, parents, siblings, children, grandchildren).

[I Have Questions]

Being that God is love I will simply say that my belief is that God has provided for the happiness for all of His children. Eternity is a LONG time. Whether or not things are as black and white as you might like to think or whether or not scriptural exegesis can fully flesh out what will happen over the long haul...I'm skeptical.

It's not a matter of what people think, it's a matter of what is taught by your Church. Have you explained to your leaders that you don't fully believe in the doctrine about the kingdoms of glory during your temple recommend interviews?

I think that some things are left to the imagination one way or the other. Towards faith or away from faith. It comes back to the whole idea of opposition in all things. That may well also apply to what we've been given compared to what is yet to come. I don't see it as being far-fetched that line upon line and precept upon precept goes with us into the next world.

Otherwise, eternity would be rather uninteresting, boring and stagnate. I would 'imagine' there's much more going on 'there' than what we can even begin to conceptualize. But of course, you can choose to think that there's nothing there at all I suppose.

Regards,
MG

You appear to be what Dr Shades would describe as a Cafeteria Mormon. Someone who doesn't fully embrace the whole doctrine of Mormonism, but selects the bits he likes and walks on past the bits he doesn't.

[I Have Questions]

Have you ever wondered why it would take to gain entry into the top level of the Celestial Kingdom? Here is what that might look like if you are born into a Mormon family.
Baptised at 8
Serve a Mission
Get married in the temple and start a family before 25 years old.
Pay a full tithe for your entire life.
Pay generous offerings for your entire life.
Serve diligently in Church callings.
Attend all your meetings.
Always obey the word of wisdom.
Attend the temple as often as possible with no excuses.
Fully sustain, in thought and deed, everything and anything the Prophets and Apostles say, even if it is the opposite of what they said and what you fully sustained in thought and deed yesterday.
Serve a senior mission.
Endure all of the above until you die.
Bequeath the Church your house and assets in your will.

I think the above is pretty much the criteria (feel free to add if I’ve missed something). I cannot think of a single immediate family unit (grandparents, parents, siblings, children, grandchildren) where all family members fit that criteria. Mormon theology guarantees that families will not be together forever. Cafeteria Mormons won’t make the top level.

[Gadianton]

is that, on the day of the feast, the townsfolk enter his mansion through its door. Would it be reasonable for a critic to complain that the offered feast is all about punishing those who, for whatever reason, don’t enter through the door?

Yes. Because, "Straight is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth to Dan's feast, and few there be that find it."

The implication is that many are invited and many are looking for it, but only a few can figure out how to get there. It doesn't matter if it's their fault or the host's fault, it's just a reality that getting through the door noted on the invitation will be more difficult than threading a tiny needle.