DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

[Marcus]

It doesn't seem like you read the post beyond the first sentence. Did you click my link and listen? Was the tune already firmly in your head before you listened? If not, your credibility as a Chapel Mormon is in serious question.

When I was a young man growing up in Southern California we had a Native American that came into our ward as part of the Indian Placement Program. And yes, at that time the teachings of the church were directed at a certain subset of early inhabitants of the American continent as being referred to as Lamanites. As time has gone on and further understanding has come our way through genetic research the church doesn’t have the narrower view that it once had. It has expanded and encompassed a larger group than what was at onetime thought.

Of course, there is more to it and this could be fleshed out. Essentially I think that most “chapel Mormons” would agree that there has been an evolution of thought as to how/where the descendants of Lehi have moved throughout the hemisphere. At BYU there are gets togethers for Native Americans and their friends now and then. I don’t think that the emphasis on “Lamanite” origins is emphasized. At the same time I would think that these students and others have an underlying belief that Father Lehi and his descendants left their mark on those living today....

Wow. So this is how Mormons today are rewriting lds history regarding those they designate as "Lamanites"? Fascinating.

[Gadianton]

Essentially I think that most “chapel Mormons” would agree that there has been an evolution of thought

Chapel Mormons don't believe that thought evolves. The world's thinking is what evolves. Prophets solve the problem of everchanging thought with revelations that settle a matter as needed. God's word is unchanging. If your understanding of God's word is changing, it means you're not understanding God's word. Try having a prophet clarify it.

[MG 2.0]

Essentially I think that most “chapel Mormons” would agree that there has been an evolution of thought

Chapel Mormons don't believe that thought evolves.

Oh? That's an interesting view.

The world's thinking is what evolves.

Well, of course. That's to be expected.

Prophets solve the problem of everchanging thought with revelations that settle a matter as needed. God's word is unchanging.

On the ground it seems that there are times when 'matters' dictate a change. God, however, is unchanging. And, truth be told, I don't think we have a full understanding of how God works in the world at all times and in all places.

If your understanding of God's word is changing, it means you're not understanding God's word. Try having a prophet clarify it.

I think that's a wise saying. Let the prophet clarify it. But even then, there may be further light and knowledge coming down the road. The world and its people are dynamic, not static. Things are ALWAYS changing. The only thing we can have FULL confidence in is death and taxes.

And, that God is over all. He's got it.

Regards,
Mg

[Marcus]

...The only thing we can have FULL confidence in is death and taxes.

And, that God is over all. He's got it...

No, that's not what "we" think, that's what mg believes.

[Moksha]

The absence of archeological evidence and lack of proof of what's described in the Book of Mormon over the course of a thousand years is all anyone with half a brain need know -- the Book of Mormon is total BS. Therefore, I figure Peterson has about 1/4 of a brain. The Mormons will gladly muck your mind up with their apologetic nonsense.

I feel certain that Dr. Peterson uses over 10% of his brain capacity; perhaps up to 12 to 13%. With the use of a dowsing rod, this undoubtedly goes up to 15%.

Hypothetically, this could exceed 20% when coupled with a fully charged Seer Stone. That gives him insight into DNA speculating.

[malkie]

Chapel Mormons don't believe that thought evolves.

Oh? That's an interesting view.

The world's thinking is what evolves.

Well, of course. That's to be expected.

Prophets solve the problem of everchanging thought with revelations that settle a matter as needed. God's word is unchanging.

On the ground it seems that there are times when 'matters' dictate a change. God, however, is unchanging. And, truth be told, I don't think we have a full understanding of how God works in the world at all times and in all places.

If your understanding of God's word is changing, it means you're not understanding God's word. Try having a prophet clarify it.

I think that's a wise saying. Let the prophet clarify it. But even then, there may be further light and knowledge coming down the road. The world and its people are dynamic, not static. Things are ALWAYS changing. The only thing we can have FULL confidence in is death and taxes.

And, that God is over all. He's got it.

Regards,
Mg

I have to agree with your second last sentence. For sure you cannot have FULL confidence in the LDS prophets, or the god they claim to represent.

Yes, I know that's not what you meant to say, but say it you did!

Have a great weekend.

Edit: missed "second" the first time - I hope that makes sense

[malkie]

I know/knew people in Mexico who grew up in the church being taught that they were, and should be proud to be, Lamanites; that they were fulfilling the promises of the Book of Mormon; and that they were to lead the church in these, the latter days.

In spite of all of these lovely words, they were (and in some places at least) looked down on by the "white" members, as being stupid, lazy, not suited to leadership, etc. It's patronizing and disgusting. And the roots of these disgusting beliefs are right there, in the Book of Mormon. They are, in my opinion, also exemplified by the makeup of the senior leaders of the church. If the Lamanites are supposed to lead, I'd expect to see a differently constituted Q15, for example.

[Tom]

I may not be following: were the local wards and branches watching the Lamanite Generation perform or were local wards and branches performing their own shows? I have not been able to find a good history of the troupe.

Ahhh - sorry for the ambiguity. Of course, I knew exactly what I meant!

The Lamanite Generation that toured Scotland was a group of missionaries who were called to work with local wards and branches to help the local members perform their own shows. In effect, we provided a lot of the background stuff, and the missionaries performed parts that were beyond the abilities of most Scottish members - e.g., the Hoop Dance was an essential and spectacular feature that nobody in my branch, least of all me, could have done.

Overlapping in time, the BYU troupe called Lamanite Generation was touring the world. I think that Lamanite Generation/Living Legends is likely a decent abbreviated history of the troupe, but I really don't know a lot about it.

I had not heard of missionaries using the name Lamanite Generation and ward and branch members portraying Lamanites in performances. I assume this took place in the 1970s.

Posted from Pseudopolyandry, Utah

[Tom]

My parents participated in the Lamanite Generation -- what would you call it? A play or a pageant or a production or what? I have no idea. I was very young. I don't even recall what my parents did there. One of the most distinct memories of my life occurred there, which I don't wish to discuss openly, and maybe because of that I remember the whole thing much better. I remember being in the seats watching rehearsals over and over again. So I knew the main song. In fact, even now I can anticipate the lyrics and point to spots that differ between the recorded version and the live production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ8CAYjAzow

This really happened. It wasn't just something Kimball believed, it was hugely ingrained in Mormon culture. To tell me that this was some non-material interpretation by a few misguided members is ridiculous. This was fully part of what it meant to be a Chapel Mormon, and anyone who denies it denies that they were ever really Mormon.

That’s fascinating. Were they part of the BYU singing and dancing performance group or a local Lamanite Generation group? Did they go on tour? Was their participation a positive experience?

Posted from Pseudopolyandry, Utah

[malkie]

Ahhh - sorry for the ambiguity. Of course, I knew exactly what I meant!

The Lamanite Generation that toured Scotland was a group of missionaries who were called to work with local wards and branches to help the local members perform their own shows. In effect, we provided a lot of the background stuff, and the missionaries performed parts that were beyond the abilities of most Scottish members - e.g., the Hoop Dance was an essential and spectacular feature that nobody in my branch, least of all me, could have done.

Overlapping in time, the BYU troupe called Lamanite Generation was touring the world. I think that Lamanite Generation/Living Legends is likely a decent abbreviated history of the troupe, but I really don't know a lot about it.

I had not heard of missionaries using the name Lamanite Generation and ward and branch members portraying Lamanites in performances. I assume this took place in the 1970s.

It was around 1975 or so. I remember that because I asked for permission to use a meeting room in the college I taught at for a lunch-time "teaser", and I was teaching there from about 1974 to 1977.

You're raising doubts in my mind about the naming of the local shows. Unfortunately the only person I can think of to help me remember is sliding into dementia, and is avoiding talking about anything from that time. So I could well be mistaken about the name, and have no way to check

I also remember clearly that the regular missionaries around that time were extremely dismissive of anything that the local members did, but they were favourably impressed with our performance.

It's possible that I have a photo or two from the show - I'm pretty sure there's at least one of Elder Curtis Klovansky performing the Hoop Dance. I'll try to find them if you're interested.