CWK #52: Corporate Mormonism?

[Kishkumen]

https://youtu.be/JJRUXd_y4h8

Over time, critics of the LDS Church, especially disillusioned or former members, have come to emphasize the "corporate" nature of the LDS Church. In my view, their complaint comes from a genuine experience, but it is not the only perspective. Other members actually find the Church's business acumen faith affirming. Coffee for a Dream presents that perspective.

Here's the latest Coffee with Kish! It's on a topic that regularly comes up, and I was surprised to see new convert "Coffee for a Dream" take it up. I had no idea that this was such a widely known criticism.

[Rivendale]

for what it's worth....Renlund did post his family vacationing including snorkeling along with an enormous family entourage at an airport which was immediately scrubbed from the site. Vacationing is fine and people have a right to share their experiences but the immediate deletion is telling.

[Gadianton]

I agree with all of your observations about the corporate church. I think you're 100% right about everything, and that person whose testimony was inspired by the Church's corporatism is out to lunch. Of course it does something besides "only" make money because it's a church, and to maintain deniability for tax purposes it has to! Both my mission presidents were company men and it was obvious that corporatism, especially the leadership ladder, was a major inspiration to them. At the same time, Jesus's movement is self-contradictory because a rag-tag bunch of outcasts can't build an efficient world organization without becoming insider conformists at the same time.

I think your observations are right though, that the church did function more like an incorporated church than the facade of a corporation. You may have missed one thing, and that's the elimination of revelation entirely from a church that identifies itself by it's claim to modern revelation. In the 50s there were Answers to Gospel Questions. The priesthood manuals and the Ensign from then until the 90s were insane. Correlation ended that. Leaders would no longer entertain doctrinal questions from members.

I think that 40 year period could be characterized as the teenage years of the Church. Perhaps there is a similarity to Mao's and Deng's China. As the teenager gets a foothold into the world, however, the teen becomes embarrassed over their zeal and walks it back. The ending of Road Shows, the Manti Pageant, and the building of City Creek is all off-putting. City Creek was designed by Taubman. I'm sure plenty of GA relatives got juiced into lucrative contracts rebuilding the city, but contrast these white-collar business leaders listening to outside experts with Brigham Young who only had the hands of the saints themselves to build Temple Square, something truly amazing and authentically Mormon. And this is how it goes, outside experts are called into every facet of management. And then the investment empire grows so large that it can't help but eclipse everything else.

[I Have Questions]

for what it's worth....Renlund did post his family vacationing including snorkeling along with an enormous family entourage at an airport which was immediately scrubbed from the site. Vacationing is fine and people have a right to share their experiences but the immediate deletion is telling.

They scrubbed it because the whole trip is being “all expenses” paid for by the Widows Mite. Can you imagine the trips they go on that we don’t know about? It’s a corporate perk for top level executives.

[Kishkumen]

for what it's worth....Renlund did post his family vacationing including snorkeling along with an enormous family entourage at an airport which was immediately scrubbed from the site. Vacationing is fine and people have a right to share their experiences but the immediate deletion is telling.

I did not know that! Huh. Well, I think the way it raises suspicions is something that would readily become apparent, leading to the removal.

[Kishkumen]

I agree with all of your observations about the corporate church. I think you're 100% right about everything, and that person whose testimony was inspired by the Church's corporatism is out to lunch. Of course it does something besides "only" make money because it's a church, and to maintain deniability for tax purposes it has to! Both my mission presidents were company men and it was obvious that corporatism, especially the leadership ladder, was a major inspiration to them. At the same time, Jesus's movement is self-contradictory because a rag-tag bunch of outcasts can't build an efficient world organization without becoming insider conformists at the same time.

I think your observations are right though, that the church did function more like an incorporated church than the facade of a corporation. You may have missed one thing, and that's the elimination of revelation entirely from a church that identifies itself by it's claim to modern revelation. In the 50s there were Answers to Gospel Questions. The priesthood manuals and the Ensign from then until the 90s were insane. Correlation ended that. Leaders would no longer entertain doctrinal questions from members.

I think that 40 year period could be characterized as the teenage years of the Church. Perhaps there is a similarity to Mao's and Deng's China. As the teenager gets a foothold into the world, however, the teen becomes embarrassed over their zeal and walks it back. The ending of Road Shows, the Manti Pageant, and the building of City Creek is all off-putting. City Creek was designed by Taubman. I'm sure plenty of GA relatives got juiced into lucrative contracts rebuilding the city, but contrast these white-collar business leaders listening to outside experts with Brigham Young who only had the hands of the saints themselves to build Temple Square, something truly amazing and authentically Mormon. And this is how it goes, outside experts are called into every facet of management. And then the investment empire grows so large that it can't help but eclipse everything else.

Elimination or redefinition. The board room deliberations have become revelation! It is all in the definition of the thing, if you want to weather changes. Thank you for your insightful comments, Gad! I especially like your thoughts on the teen years of the church.

[Rivendale]

for what it's worth....Renlund did post his family vacationing including snorkeling along with an enormous family entourage at an airport which was immediately scrubbed from the site. Vacationing is fine and people have a right to share their experiences but the immediate deletion is telling.

They scrubbed it because the whole trip is being “all expenses” paid for by the Widows Mite. Can you imagine the trips they go on than we don’t know about? It’s a corporate perk for top level executives.

If you consider how long they got away with the SEC violation it would only seem to make sense they could keep travel perks secret also. Temple building is another way to build generational wealth and several no bid contractors are reaping those benefits.

[Kishkumen]

If you consider how long they got away with the SEC violation it would only seem to make sense they could keep travel perks secret also. Temple building is another way to build generational wealth and several no bid contractors are reaping those benefits.

It would be fascinating to see a network analysis showing the ties between LDS leaders, extended family, and contractors.

[Rivendale]

If you consider how long they got away with the SEC violation it would only seem to make sense they could keep travel perks secret also. Temple building is another way to build generational wealth and several no bid contractors are reaping those benefits.

It would be fascinating to see a network analysis showing the ties between LDS leaders, extended family, and contractors.

Ask and you shall receive. Nemo the Mormon did a quick 10min breakdown of some of the bigger construction companies and their relationship to leaders. I think the hvac company used was the one exception.

https://youtu.be/u0LdjTZW93U?si=KiUPUJq2jTspuq_i

[Kishkumen]

Thanks, Rivendale!