A social contagion that includes minors and surgery is worth talking about.
Transgenderism is a serious issue. I would prefer discussing it and hashing out its politics in a republic.
My attitude to this kind of things is basically that shown in the 'Declaration of the rights of the person and the citizen', adopted by those delegates gathered together a month after the fall of the Bastille prison on 14 July 1789, marking the start of the French Revolution. In the original, this says:
Article 4
La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres membres de la société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la loi.
"Liberty consists in being able to do anything that does not harm someone else: thus, the exercise of each person's natural rights has no limits apart from those that ensure that other members of society enjoy the same rights. These limited may only be fixed by law." (My translation)
Thus: I don't care if someone born with a male body wants to be treated as a woman - it does me no harm at all. On the other hand, such a person may find that people born with female bodies claim the right not to have people with male bodies coming into space where they may not be fully dressed, or coming into a space intended for people with female bodies who have been sexually assaulted by people with male bodies. The law may therefore limit the rights of the people named in the first sentence in some ways, in order to protect the rights of people with female bodies.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Kishkumen wrote:Transgenderism is a serious issue. I would prefer discussing it and hashing out its politics in a republic.
Thank you.
There is a gay YouTuber I watch sometimes who is a trans advocate and who I assume qualifies as an actual progressive rather than a disaffected conservative or a libertarian such as myself and the other normal people on this forum who don't want to live in a theophany ran by atheist crypto and AI billionaires along with their dirty politicians and YouTube ministers. He's pretty damn smart and entertaining on all issues -- on the recent SC stuff that came out, his comment was if you're gay or trans in this country right now, you're f'd. His only advice is to keep your mouth shut until you're 18 and then??
If that's his advice as an actual progressive, then for those of us who aren't progressives and who take the bait arguing against the illogical positions of provocateurs and extremists, all we're doing is making such people targets, which is bad for them, and a distraction for more important issues, which, among other things, would need to be sorted out first as you point out. This is the same observation I made about immigrants not long ago. I really feel that the culture war right-wingers started over immigration was enabled by certain left-wingers. I think there may have been ways to support immigrants without further making them targets in the culture war.
Transgenderism is a serious issue. I would prefer discussing it and hashing out its politics in a republic.
My attitude to this kind of things is basically that shown in the 'Declaration of the rights of the person and the citizen', adopted by those delegates gathered together a month after the fall of the Bastille prison on 14 July 1789, marking the start of the French Revolution. In the original, this says:
Article 4
La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres membres de la société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la loi.
"Liberty consists in being able to do anything that does not harm someone else: thus, the exercise of each person's natural rights has no limits apart from those that ensure that other members of society enjoy the same rights. These limited may only be fixed by law." (My translation)
Thus: I don't care if someone born with a male body wants to be treated as a woman - it does me no harm at all. On the other hand, such a person may find that people born with female bodies claim the right not to have people with male bodies coming into space where they may not be fully dressed, or coming into a space intended for people with female bodies who have been sexually assaulted by people with male bodies. The law may therefore limit the rights of the people named in the first sentence in some ways, in order to protect the rights of people with female bodies.
Choose away.
Minor children should not be chopped up, screwed up, chemicaled up and encouraged to do permanent changes based on childish experience.
This is less about gender and boobs and more about common sense, health, and a social contagion.
Ban Whiskey permanently if that's the only way.
— Gadianton
Thus: I don't care if someone born with a male body wants to be treated as a woman - it does me no harm at all. On the other hand, such a person may find that people born with female bodies claim the right not to have people with male bodies coming into space where they may not be fully dressed, or coming into a space intended for people with female bodies who have been sexually assaulted by people with male bodies. The law may therefore limit the rights of the people named in the first sentence in some ways, in order to protect the rights of people with female bodies.
I am with you, Chap. The key points, in my mind, are the status of minors and how they can be influenced to do things that may or may not be in their long-term interest. Minors do not have full civil rights, and I believe that is a good thing. If I had my druthers, no one would have full civil rights until the age of 25, when their higher brain functions are pretty fully online.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Kishkumen wrote:Transgenderism is a serious issue. I would prefer discussing it and hashing out its politics in a republic.
Thank you.
There is a gay YouTuber I watch sometimes who is a trans advocate and who I assume qualifies as an actual progressive rather than a disaffected conservative or a libertarian such as myself and the other normal people on this forum who don't want to live in a theophany ran by atheist crypto and AI billionaires along with their dirty politicians and YouTube ministers. He's pretty damn smart and entertaining on all issues -- on the recent SC stuff that came out, his comment was if you're gay or trans in this country right now, you're f'd. His only advice is to keep your mouth shut until you're 18 and then??
If that's his advice as an actual progressive, then for those of us who aren't progressives and who take the bait arguing against the illogical positions of provocateurs and extremists, all we're doing is making such people targets, which is bad for them, and a distraction for more important issues, which, among other things, would need to be sorted out first as you point out. This is the same observation I made about immigrants not long ago. I really feel that the culture war right-wingers started over immigration was enabled by certain left-wingers. I think there may have been ways to support immigrants without further making them targets in the culture war.
Transgender folks are already targets. Authoritarian mass movements require scapegoats. Guys like Chris Rico created a moral panic about trans folks, claiming that they are pedos and groomers. The newest anti trans propaganda is that they are overrepresented in mass shooters. That’s the lie that Charlie Kirk was in the middle of pushing when he was murdered. Congresscritters have already discussed taking away their seconds amendment rights. A couple have spoken out in favor of involuntary detention in insane asylums.
The official position of the federal government is that trans people don’t exist. In fact, it has identified “extreme gender ideology” (code for being trans or advocating for the rights of trans people) as terrorism. State legislatures are contemplating bills that would force all trans folks to medically detransition by making it illegal to prescribe hormones for them.
Staying silent when an authoritarian movement targets a group for scapegoating never ends well for that group.
he/him
“I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time so that my children can live in peace.” — Thomas Paine
There is a gay YouTuber I watch sometimes who is a trans advocate and who I assume qualifies as an actual progressive rather than a disaffected conservative or a libertarian such as myself and the other normal people on this forum who don't want to live in a theophany ran by atheist crypto and AI billionaires along with their dirty politicians and YouTube ministers. He's pretty damn smart and entertaining on all issues -- on the recent SC stuff that came out, his comment was if you're gay or trans in this country right now, you're f'd. His only advice is to keep your mouth shut until you're 18 and then??
If that's his advice as an actual progressive, then for those of us who aren't progressives and who take the bait arguing against the illogical positions of provocateurs and extremists, all we're doing is making such people targets, which is bad for them, and a distraction for more important issues, which, among other things, would need to be sorted out first as you point out. This is the same observation I made about immigrants not long ago. I really feel that the culture war right-wingers started over immigration was enabled by certain left-wingers. I think there may have been ways to support immigrants without further making them targets in the culture war.
Yesterday, Stephen Miller claimed that the president has plenary power to federalize the National Guard to use it on American soil as he sees fit. As long as we suffer under a regime--not a legitimate presidency--that operates against our Constitution, we can't imagine that other serious issues will be addressed rationally and justly. I don't feel like I can tell others what to do. I have neither the capacity nor the podium. But, as far as I'm concerned, the rogue executive is the top priority.
The overreach of the left--and I do believe that it was overreach--gave the unscrupulous bad actors the ability to attack our constitutional government. Legitimacy is a delicate thing. You can undermine it by breaking the law. You can undermine it by not upholding the law. You can even undermine it by making enough people uncomfortable with where you want to take them. The left regularly makes the mistake of fighting for ideals as though they existed in a vaccuum, but you cannot have a republic based on the ideals of a small number of righteous zealots.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Transgender folks are already targets. Authoritarian mass movements require scapegoats. Guys like Chris Rico created a moral panic about trans folks, claiming that they are pedos and groomers. The newest anti trans propaganda is that they are overrepresented in mass shooters. That’s the lie that Charlie Kirk was in the middle of pushing when he was murdered. Congresscritters have already discussed taking away their seconds amendment rights. A couple have spoken out in favor of involuntary detention in insane asylums.
The official position of the federal government is that trans people don’t exist. In fact, it has identified “extreme gender ideology” (code for being trans or advocating for the rights of trans people) as terrorism. State legislatures are contemplating bills that would force all trans folks to medically detransition by making it illegal to prescribe hormones for them.
Staying silent when an authoritarian movement targets a group for scapegoating never ends well for that group.
And they will scapegoat vulnerable minorities as long as they have oxygen. I would argue that stopping them is the first priority--robbing them of the oxygen they need to scapegoat minorities.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
[...]
do detansitioners deserve to have their voice heard without trying to be silenced by the trans movement?
Absolutely. Minority voices are always important, and help emphasize the importance of a multifaceted and multi-disciplinary approach that delays irreversible changes until the general timeframe where brain (and social) development is more mature and solidified. This is also why hormone blockers can be such an incredibly beneficial tool for medical providers and families during this formative time.
It's also a reminder that transitioning can and does look very different for every trans person, and that social pressure of a strict gender dichotomy can be detrimental to trans or non-binary people who would otherwise find happiness and mental health in other ways than surgical and/or full social transitioning to one of the two primary western gender identities.
Last edited by Doctor Steuss on Thu Oct 09, 2025 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The key points, in my mind, are the status of minors and how they can be influenced to do things that may or may not be in their long-term interest. Minors do not have full civil rights, and I believe that is a good thing.
Interestingly, the Declaration does not deal with the case of minors.
As a parent myself, I sympathise with the position you indicate. On the other hand, I am all for parent's rights to coerce their children against their will having some limits - one ought not to be able to force one's children into marriage, or (in effect) send them to prison camps for 'problem children' that they are not allowed to leave, and so on. Children's rights may be more limited than adults, but that does not mean they should have no rights at all other than the right to obey their parents' notion of what is best for them.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Interestingly, the Declaration does not deal with the case of minors.
As a parent myself, I sympathise with the position you indicate. On the other hand, I am all for parent's rights to coerce their children against their will having some limits - one ought not to be able to force one's children into marriage, or (in effect) send them to prison camps for 'problem children' that they are not allowed to leave, and so on. Children's rights may be more limited than adults, but that does not mean they should have no rights at all other than the right to obey their parents' notion of what is best for them.
Yes, my position is that minors' rights should have limits, not cease to exist.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
