Concerning the Missing “Interpreters”

[MG 2.0]

MG,

I think for your genius argument to work, the Book of Mormon itself must be widely accepted as a work of genius.

I think you’d find that, while believing Mormons certainly believe the book is exceptional - non-Mormons tend to have a more middling opinion of the quality of the book.

Much of the Book of Mormon is copied, repeated, rephrased, and as go the original topic - drawn heavily from the lives of the people around Joseph and ideas already prevalent in his area.

The Book of Mormon isn’t miraculous enough to make Joseph into a genius for writing it, in my opinion. Unless you dumb down Joseph to below average intelligence…

Maybe the real issue is that you are trying to fit Joseph into categories that don’t quite hold, either prophet or fraud, genius or fool, when the truth might be more complex and human than either extreme. If you're going to reject divine origin, doesn’t that still demand a serious reckoning with Joseph’s cognitive and rhetorical abilities? It's kind of a danged if you don't and danged if you do sort of thing.

The fact of the matter is that we have 500 pages of narrative, theology, and interwoven voices...all produced in a matter of months without significant revision.

I hear you, more or less, brushing that off. The word print studies I linked to earlier don't seem to let you off the hook that easily.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

In Mosiah 15, Alvin—through the voice of Abinadi—articulates a daring theology: that Jesus is both the Father and the Son, and that the Father possesses a tangible body. This is not an abstract metaphysical claim but a revelation of divine embodiment—God is a man, just like us, enthroned in yonder heavens.

I love this approach. For a long time, I have believed that Alvin was a much bigger deal than is currently recognized by most students of Early Mormonism. I could go on about this, but I even suspect his presence in the LDS endowment.

Alma’s escape mirrors Oliver’s quiet withdrawal following Alvin’s death, both carrying away the inner record of the revelation that the public could not receive.

Could you expand on this a bit? That seems chronologically unlikely, but then there may be facts that I am simply unaware of.

After watching the video, my summary takeaway from Callister is: “since the precise mechanism for the creation of the book is unknown, the official explanation by Joseph of its origin must be true.”

I disagree with that conclusion, because it turns uncertainty into confirmation. It becomes an argument from ignorance, plastered over by faith. “We don’t know exactly how it happened” isn’t evidence that Joseph’s story must be right. In fact, it should drive deeper inquiry, not less.

Well said. It is a common apologetic tactic, it seems to me. "If you can't explain it to my personal satisfaction, then the received narrative is true."

By the way, have you written up your hypothesis in long form?

Yes, the chronology is a gap, but the history of Oliver Cowdery’s whereabouts has much uncertainty.

According to Oliver’s sister, Lucy Cowdery Young, “Oliver was brought up in Poultney Rutland County Vermont and when he arrived at the age of twenty he went to the State of New York where his older brothers were married and settled, and in about two years my father moved there” (Lucy Cowdery Young to Brigham H. Young, March 7, 1887, Church History Library, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

Lucy also claimed Oliver was born in 1805, however (the correct year is 1806), so Oliver’s arriving in New York as early as 1825 would be partially consistent with her account. See Larry E. Morris, “Oliver Cowdery’s Vermont Years and the Origins of Mormonism,” BYU Studies 39, no. 1 (2000): 106–29

https://byustudies.BYU.edu/article/oliv ... -Mormonism

Speculative dates for his arrival in Western NY range anywhere range from 1822 to 1825, and generally seem designed to support theories about the books origins rather than based in hard fact.

However, it is hard to ignore that Oliver’s brothers Warren A. Cowdery (resident of Freedom, Cattaraugus Co., by 1816) and Lyman Cowdery (listed in Arcadia, Wayne Co., 1830 census) were already established in western New York, which would support the likelihood of family visits in the early 1820s

All that said, what I’d offer is “internal evidence,” which places Oliver in Harmony PA, near the Susquehanna River in 1829, corresponding to Alma near the waters of Mormon.

Backwards tracing this parallel information traces Alma back to Abinadi, the chosen prophet (and son, per my vision) who had been killed.

The official version is Joseph and Oliver came upon the passage in Mosiah 18:

- Mosiah 18:14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.
- 15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.

I don’t believe the official version - rather I believe Oliver first baptized himself and then Joseph, and then they “translated” that action into the book.

As an aside, it is also interesting to me that there was another there. Who was that?

Later accounts relate that John the Baptist appeared and conferred the Aaronic Priesthood, giving them authority to baptize each other. Joseph and Oliver did not mention this appearance until the 1834-35 timeline.

I’ve drawn a parallel (as have others) between the mention in the D&C of Sidney Rigdon serving as a John the Baptist figure. While I’m not convinced Rigdon was present, it is an interesting correlation.

I have several “draft” long forms of my hypothesis, but have never put it all together.

My intent was to present the thinking here and see if there was interest before further pursuit. Over the past decade or so I’ve started to capture the entirety only to become discouraged and defeated by lack of time to dedicate to the project.

[Limnor]

What it does do is leave one with the necessity/responsibility of determining its truth through study and also by faith...which includes seeking after inspiration/revelation from God. It's not a done deal simply because its origins cannot be fully explained through secular/naturalistic means. Not to say there haven't been a bunch of theories, including your own.

MG, a couple of weeks ago I stated that I believe the book is true, and it was revealed to me through much study and prayer. We differ on the “ancientness” of the book, not the truth of its internal content.

Although, even the internal doctrinal theology could be debated. After all, Alma and Moroni (or, perhaps more accurately, Oliver and Sidney) were humans expounding on theological matters. There isn’t a lot of “thus saith the Lord” in the book, outside of the references to Isaiah and other biblical passages.

The thing is, historians, critics, and even the faithful, tend to prefer observable, objective facts when considering assertions of truth.

[Limnor]

The fact of the matter is that we have 500 pages of narrative, theology, and interwoven voices...all produced in a matter of months without significant revision.

Do you have access to a definitive timeline for production? For example, when exactly was “Zeniff” translated?

That would be very useful to my studies.

[Limnor]

Well that was interesting.

Below post responds to another post that was here briefly but is now missing. But, since I put in the effort, I’m going to post my work haha

I had not read William Davis’s book, but did take a brief look at descriptions of the book available online.

I found it very interesting, and was unaware that the original 1830 book had chapter headings - my previous understanding was Orson Pratt added the chapter headings in later editions.

Davis’s main points:

- Using oral performance skills that Smith ostensibly gained prior to 1829, his three-month “prodigious flow of verbal art and narrative creation” (7) became the Book of Mormon.

- Davis’s theory describes a two-part literary pattern in the Book of Mormon where summary outlines (called “heads) in the text are consistently expanded in subsequent sections of the narrative. Termed “laying down heads,” Davis insists that such literary devices are anachronistic to Book of Mormon era and constitute strong evidence that Joseph Smith contributed heavily, if not solely, to the publication.

Example (1830 Edition)

- From Mosiah Chapter III (modern Mosiah 2–5 combined):

- An account of the sermon of King Benjamin to his people—He proclaims Christ, and the atonement—The people covenant to obey God and take upon them the name of Christ.

This original heading could have served both as a summary and an outline of the type Davis suggests.

My thoughts: this method would certainly aid with structure and notes to inform development of the text; however, my own belief is the book was not produced over the 90-day period touted.

Example: I believe parts of Ether and Mosiah were actually written down in 1823, and later expanded on through redaction (as the text states). Rather than the redaction occurring by an ancient author - Mormon or Moroni - I believe those redactions occurred in 1829 in the months before publication by Joseph and Rigdon.

Example part deux: In Mosiah 27 an angel appears to the sons of Mosiah (representing Joseph, Oliver, Pratt, and Whitmer) - I believe this was in 1824 (in line with the “first vision”) and what follows in the book are their “return and report,” which aligns Mosiah (Rigdon) at the center with his four “sons” branching out as missionaries in both the textual and historical sense.

Joseph ultimately usurps Rigdon with the loss of the 116 pages - I believe Joseph relied on the loss of an original record to allow for him to insert himself as Nephi.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, the chronology is a gap, but the history of Oliver Cowdery’s whereabouts has much uncertainty.

According to Oliver’s sister, Lucy Cowdery Young, “Oliver was brought up in Poultney Rutland County Vermont and when he arrived at the age of twenty he went to the State of New York where his older brothers were married and settled, and in about two years my father moved there” (Lucy Cowdery Young to Brigham H. Young, March 7, 1887, Church History Library, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

Lucy also claimed Oliver was born in 1805, however (the correct year is 1806), so Oliver’s arriving in New York as early as 1825 would be partially consistent with her account. See Larry E. Morris, “Oliver Cowdery’s Vermont Years and the Origins of Mormonism,” BYU Studies 39, no. 1 (2000): 106–29

https://byustudies.BYU.edu/article/oliv ... -Mormonism

Speculative dates for his arrival in Western NY range anywhere range from 1822 to 1825, and generally seem designed to support theories about the books origins rather than based in hard fact.

However, it is hard to ignore that Oliver’s brothers Warren A. Cowdery (resident of Freedom, Cattaraugus Co., by 1816) and Lyman Cowdery (listed in Arcadia, Wayne Co., 1830 census) were already established in western New York, which would support the likelihood of family visits in the early 1820s

All that said, what I’d offer is “internal evidence,” which places Oliver in Harmony PA, near the Susquehanna River in 1829, corresponding to Alma near the waters of Mormon.

Backwards tracing this parallel information traces Alma back to Abinadi, the chosen prophet (and son, per my vision) who had been killed.

The official version is Joseph and Oliver came upon the passage in Mosiah 18:

- Mosiah 18:14 And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit.
- 15 And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water.

I don’t believe the official version - rather I believe Oliver first baptized himself and then Joseph, and then they “translated” that action into the book.

As an aside, it is also interesting to me that there was another there. Who was that?

Later accounts relate that John the Baptist appeared and conferred the Aaronic Priesthood, giving them authority to baptize each other. Joseph and Oliver did not mention this appearance until the 1834-35 timeline.

I’ve drawn a parallel (as have others) between the mention in the D&C of Sidney Rigdon serving as a John the Baptist figure. While I’m not convinced Rigdon was present, it is an interesting correlation.

I have several “draft” long forms of my hypothesis, but have never put it all together.

My intent was to present the thinking here and see if there was interest before further pursuit. Over the past decade or so I’ve started to capture the entirety only to become discouraged and defeated by lack of time to dedicate to the project.

That seems plausible. Of course, you will find the usual pushback from Mormon apologists and traditional scholars-historians, but I don't think you should be dissuaded from pursuing your work. I think there is enough evidence to suggest a biographical connection between the Book of Mormon and its author(s). Obviously, Dan Vogel has his own take on that. Chris Smith did a good article on the use of code names in the D&C that helps your hypothesis. I encourage you to keep at it and work on a book.

[malkie]

Thanks for the memory, Rev. Many of the kids here are too young to remember when some sections of D&C had "fake" names to conceal the identities of leaders.

At least one poster here used such a name as their handle: Gazelam

[Limnor]

Thank you, Kish. Do you have a link to Chris Smith’s paper?

[Limnor]

Thanks for the memory, Rev. Many of the kids here are too young to remember when some sections of D&C had "fake" names to conceal the identities of leaders.

At least one poster here used such a name as their handle: Gazelam

Frankly I believe that “code name” method extends back to the Book of Mormon.

“Gazelem” even makes an appearance, as you are probably aware.

[Kishkumen]

Thank you, Kish. Do you have a link to Chris Smith’s paper?

https://www.academia.edu/download/30400 ... ations.pdf